Budgie Phono Preamp Compared to Budgie Hybrid

Anyone have experience with the hybrid? I wanted the all tube Budgie but I'm worried it doesn't have enough gain for my Jolida FX-10. I emailed Shannon and he said that with my setup the hybrid would be a better for. However if I was content with the gain of my current preamp (Cambridge Azur 551p) that the Budgie should be fine. I just want to be sure I'm getting that same warm tube sound with the hybrid like I would the normal Budgie Any thoughts on it as compared to the Pro-Ject Tubebox DS? Thanks!

 

I'll just copy/paste what I wrote elsewhere for you...

It sounds like the math might be new to you. Loads of people around here can make better sense of it than I. Having said that, it's your cart that matters in this case. The sole reason your amp was mentioned is because it doesn't offer tons of power so if you get a preamp with a low ceiling in terms of power, you might find yourself maxing your amp's volume knob and still be hungry for more volume. With a more powerful preamp, that situation could be avoided, if the additional power works well with a 2M Blue.

At 5.5mV, it's a pretty "loud" cart so there's a chance you could get by with 38db but I'll let others vouch for that. The problem with the budgie is the sole gain setting which is why it's important to do what you're doing (i.e. your homework) before forking over your dough. Wait for others to figure out the math for you and ensure 38db would be enough or confirm the need for more power and therefore the Hybrid. Some carts still sound great when pushed to higher gains while others plain don't.

Lastly, if you ever decide to get a lower gain MM cart or join the ranks of those who've jumped onto MC carts, you can always get a SUT which would work along with the Budgie and grant you even more gain.

 

Find out your amps input sensitivity then you can compute the ideal amount of gain needed

 

Here is the math that was given to me. I just want to know the sound quality difference between the normal Budgie and the hybrid, all things being equal.

The 42dB gain recommendation comes from the following calculations. The Jolida needs 670mV of input voltage drive to hit 10W. The Ortofon 2M Blue puts out 5.5mV. So 670mV / 5.5mV = 122 times gain or 42dB gain. With only 38dB, the amp can only put out 4.5W as it runs out of voltage drive. As I said in the earlier email, if you feel that the current gain arrangement is OK, then the regular Budgie should be fine. It has very similar gain to your Cambridge Audio 551P (38dB vs 39dB).

 

My main concern with the hybrid is that, like the Pro-Ject Tubebox DS, it uses IC opamps for most of the gain. Are the tubes mainly just used as a buffer; and if so does the sound vary that much between the hybrid and the regular boogie.

 

Questions better suited for the Mr Shannon. However, I can relay that @vinyldoneright bought a Hybrid after getting the regular version and opted to sell the regular version.

Personally, I wouldn't be stuck on tube VS SS. To me, good tone is good tone, however it's provided. The Hybrid version does provide better SNR which can be beneficial during quiet passages. Something to keep in mind.

 

I don't know the exact specifics of the circuit, but I believe it's just the regular Budgie -- with it's regular 36 dB 6922 gain stage and RIAA stage -- plus an extra 10 dB solid state gain stage ahead of the tube gain stage, and then a solid state buffer stage on the output -- important because the original Budgie has a very high output impedance of 6K ohms, so it's not ideal for a lot of solid state line pres many of which have input impedances well below 60K ohms (you really want the line pre input impedance to be 10X the output impedance of the phono pre, but many solid state pres have input impedances of circa 30K ohms). Also, according to the product documentation the Budgie hybrid doesn't use op omps, it uses discrete JFETs.

You have a peculiar setup in that you have that Jolida which is an amp with integrated-like input functionality -- switching and volume control -- but not I believe really an integrated style line stage. The good news is that it seems to have a high input impedance -- so the 6K output impedance of the original Budgie might be less of a problems for yet -- however I don't know how the Jolida is design, the input impedance may be highly variable based on what the volume knob is set at, so maybe actually the buffered output of the hybrid would be very useful for you. Sounds like Shannon thought the additional gain and the buffered output would be better with that amp you're using. He would know.

 

They left out a bit of math but yeah the 42 db is right. Either way it's not going to be a good match. So basically coming in with two much gain can cause you phono pre to overload but I very much doubt the 5.5mv will overload the hybrid Budgie and it will give you the opportunity to try out carts with a lower output later on. Coming in 4db under might cause your amp to clip if your playing at high volumes. I say might because how much power you are using out of your amp depends on your speaker and room size.

Usually I try to stick with in 2db of ideal, preferably coming in a bit under as opposed to over. If you're set on a Budgie I'd ask if you can get a trial. Try the hybrid and if you don't like it send it back and try the original.

If the specs on the Jolida are correct you won't have an impedance mismatch.

 

I think the closest the Budgie Hybrid can get is 46 dB gain; so either way it's going to be +/- 4dB (according to the calculation). I do have a small room and use Dali Zenor 1's (which are kind of inefficient for the Jolida) so I really don't crank up the volume much.

 

So just for clarification, say I had an amp with Max. 800 input sensitivity (like the Jolida Fusion 1102) then would that increase the gain needed from the preamp?

 

Yes. The higher the input sensitivity the more gain you need.

 

I was listening to my system tonight and was wondering if there is a good rule of thumb in regards to the gain of your preamp as it relates to the volume control of your amp. For example, when I set the volume control on my amp at the 12:00 to 1:00 positions the volume is plenty loud for my needs. For me there is no reason to go past 1:00. Would a higher gain preamp move that volume setting down, say closer to 10:00 to 11:00. To me it seems like the optimal volume setting would be round the 1:00 position. Does that make sense or am I thinking about the preamp/amp relationship wrong?

 

I was listening to my system tonight and was wondering if there is a good rule of thumb in regards to the gain of your preamp as it relates to the volume control of your amp. For example, when I set the volume control on my amp at the 12:00 to 1:00 positions the volume is plenty loud for my needs. For me there is no reason to go past 1:00. Would a higher gain preamp move that volume setting down, say closer to 10:00 to 11:00. To me it seems like the optimal volume setting would be round the 1:00 position. Does that make sense or am I thinking about the preamp/amp relationship wrong?

 

There's no need to double-post and cross-post either. You can quote multiple people in a single post and write your reply after that. They'll all get notifications, no worries.

 

It depends on when your Jolida runs into trouble driving your speakers and starts to distort or clip. Yes the higher the gain on your phono preamp the lower you have to turn up your amp. The input sensitivity spec of your amp is the signal voltage your amp needs to make it's rated power before clipping, ideally. Specs are guidelines. I have a 5 wpc SEP amp that feeds a pair of Cornwalls. My phono preamp has adjustable gain. I run it at the 46db setting for a Rega Exact. My ideal gain should be 48db. It's totally fine since the speakers I'm using are 100db 1w/1m. If I turn the gain down to 40 then I start to lose out on dynamics at volume. Unfortunately the only way for you to tell what levels of gain are going to be ok for your amp and speaker combo are to try it out. Based on my experience with Jolida amps and your speakers 6ohm impedance and 86.5 db efficiency I would assume you will need every bit of power the amp can give you and that coming in 4db gain below ideal would be too big a loss. However tub amps tend to clip softly and that is one of things people tend to like about the "tube sound".

 

Thanks, wasn't sure how it worked!

 

No problem. You can also trans-quote as in quoting from different threads. You could quote somebody in this thread and another thread. As long as you click on the Insert Quotes button in the thread you wish to reply into, that's where the quotes will appear. I think it'd be better to centralize your questions/concerns in this specific thread anyway. With every reply, it goes back to the top and can translate into more views and theoretically, more appropriate help/advice.

Whatever you decide, I'm sure you'll be pleased. Those are some good devices. I'd ask Shannon whether he accepts returns. If so, get the Hybrid and test it out for a few days. If the sound distorts because the preamp's gain is too high, return it. From that point on, you can think about getting a regular Budgie or go with something else. Good luck!

 

Like others have suggested, gain staging is as much art as science. It's a matter of setting up the system such that you have a useful range of volume adjustment from the softest to the loudest you like to listen to with full headroom -- no distortion on peaks, no lost of body or dynamic energy at the quiet end -- and best possible signal to noise ratio.

 

Thanks for all your input. I'm not really into the technical aspects of all this so trying to educate myself on such topics gives me an ulcer, but I do realize it is important to have somewhat of a working concept of how these parts work in harmony so I can be an educated buyer.

 

What's "buffered output"?

 

Some of it is easy to grasp and some are understandably more complex. I don't pretend to understand all the math but the beauty is we have lots of people here who do have an ease with it and can explain in basic English (most of the time).

I recommend a dealer with a good return policy, or, in this case, asking Shannon Parks whether he accepts returns (without a restocking fee) for a full refund if it doesn't gel with your system due to gain concerns. If he says yes, try the Hybrid first. If you hear distortion, try the regular version.

Otherwise, you'll have to either take a chance and sell the phono stage if it's not suitable for you. If you want something that is more versatile, you might have to look elsewhere. There are options aplenty in this hobby.

 

I believe I've read @chervokas explain this before. From what I remember, there are two stages where gain is created ; one tubed and one solid-state. The Hybrid is named that way because it uses both instead of just the tube (as in the regular version).

Considering how low-powered your amp is, I believe he suspects the additional gain of the Hybrid might be beneficial to you. If I'm wrong in any respect, I'm sure he'll correct me.

 

Too many options that it's making my head spin! I'm sticking with one of the Budgie's at this point, I'm wouldn't consider myself an audiophile so slight variations in detail sound are usually lost on me; unless I'm listening to my jazz records.

 

A buffer is a common electrical circuit (it's actually a 1:1 amplifier circuit but it's not doing any amplifying), used to keep something after the buffer from loading down the circuitry in front of the buffer.

In the case of the Budgie, the standard unit has a 6,000 ohm output impedance; the hybrid version has a buffer on the output which lowers the impedance to 600 ohms.

Just fyi, as a general rule of thumb you want the load impedance of a device in the signal chain to be 10X or more the source impedance to minimize voltage loss at the load input. That means with a 6,000 ohm output impedance, you'd want the linestage to have a 60K ohm or greater input impedance. But many solid state like pres have input impedances considerably lower than that -- 25K ohm or 35K ohm -- so a 6K ohm output impedance is pretty high for a device like the Budgie.

 

So do think he made that suggestion of the Hybrid in order to help drive my inefficient speakers? Or do you think he meant that I'd benefit from the Hybrid paired with that amp no matter what speaker is used?