Burning SACD iso's to DVD-R's - how is that even possible?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by C6H12O6, Dec 8, 2017.

  1. C6H12O6

    C6H12O6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    My lab
    Just curious because I was under the impression that the data produced by DSD was entirely different than what you'd get from PCM data (even if it is at a higher resolution).

    Is some conversion involved to make it possible? Or is it physically still the same data containers - i.e. if you put either a pressed SACD or DVD-Audio under a microscope, the actual pits and the exact way they're spaced out in the disc's substrate still follow the same physical guidelines of a DVD disc.
     
  2. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    The only way I see this working is if you just burn the iso on to the disc as data and play it in a player that can read ISOs. In that scenario, you're not creating an SACD, just using the disc as the storage medium.
     
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  3. jhm

    jhm Forum Resident

    Well it's definitely possible as I've done it many times. You do burn an .ISO file of the SACD but as for how it authors the disc so it reads properly in an SACD player, I have no idea. The data limits on an SACD are well within what a DVD-R can hold (generally under 5 GBs). I want to be clear, though, I do not burn the .iso as a data file, I select the .iso file and the burning program authors/writes the disc. In essesence you are creating an "SACD-R" but on DVD-R media. Not all players can recognize discs burned this way but my Oppo sure does :righton:. I'd love to hear someone more technically minded chime in on the tech behind how this is possible, but it definitely works.
     
  4. C6H12O6

    C6H12O6 Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    My lab
    Yeah, that's what I'm guessing it's doing - i.e. if the raw data is somehow actually the same, then it's really the storage medium (or data container) that's been changed, and what you have is something that is a close enough approximation of an SACD.
     
  5. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    Right. Provided you have a player that can read a DSD iso, its basically like you're using the DVD-R as a usb stick or something. The biggest difference between it and an actual SACD is I doubt it would just recognize the iso and play it like it would an actual mastered SACD, and you'd likely have to go into the file browser of the Oppo.
     
  6. stereoguy

    stereoguy The King Of Stereo Mixing

    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Sounds like there is a downside to doing this, tho. If your current player craps out, the new player may not play the disks .......which would really rot.
     
  7. jhm

    jhm Forum Resident

    It's true that not all players would handle these burned discs. I've heard that in later models of Oppo for example, the added firmware that prevented the recognition of SACD-Rs. This is one of the reasons that older models like the 103/105 are coveted (well, along with the fact that they can be used to rip SACDs as well).
     
  8. Further

    Further Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    No idea about a SACD ISO, as I've never tried it.

    I do however burn DVD-A ISO's to disc on Windows 7 by right clicking ISO > Open With > Windows Disc Image Burner and away we go. I play them back on an Oppo BDP-93 with updated firmware and they play fine. I didn't think they would after the firmware upgrade but that must only apply if your pointing the Oppo to the original file on your computer, not burned copies.

    This probably doesn't help you but thought I'd share anyway in case someone else comes looking for this info.
     
  9. rbbert

    rbbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    Reno, NV, USA
    I have read that the physical properties of SACD and DVD are the same. For sure DSD files can be burned as data to any type of disc, including CD-R and BD-R, and play back as DSD (even gaplessly) on the Oppo BDP-20x players
     
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  10. Arnold_Layne

    Arnold_Layne Forum Resident

    Location:
    Waldorf, MD USA
    SACD-R as they are dubbed unofficially are not playable in all SACD players. The older 9x series Oppo's could play them but a firmware update removed that function.
     
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  11. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    This is confirmed. The SACD and DVD spec for physical disc is exactly the same. SACD-r copies were actually first burned by the authors to test out the files created before it went to production. This was actually a reason the project to get the PS3 to rip the .isos were thought possible. After they got the PS3 to create the .iso file the next problem was locating players that didn't look for the watermarking to play the SACD-r. As part of the SACD spec all players are supposed to have an active watermarking search before player will read the disc. Early player didn't look for the watermarking because most thought and there was a way to rip the disc. I have a Pioneer DV-610AV that has hacked firmware that where the search routine is removed. It allows me to play SACD-r discs that I ripped on my PS3 then burned on my computer. I think there were also number of Denon Universal players that never included the watermark search in the startup routine.
     
  12. Isaac McHelicopter

    Isaac McHelicopter Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cumbria, UK
    Yes, my Denon DBP-161UD will play them, but my Oppo BDP 105D won't.
     
  13. Mlle. Aurora

    Mlle. Aurora Senior Member

    Location:
    München
    On a Mac, I use "Burn" (freeware). Drag the .iso into Burn as a "copy", not "Audio" or „Data“.
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2017
  14. Anna16

    Anna16 New Member

    Location:
    USA, CA
    I used to use Burn on my Mac too, but since I upgrade to Sierra, it's can't work well, and I googled a DVD burner for Mac, tried its free trail version, seems working well, I would like to know if anyone else have experienced commercial DVD burner? Any recommendation?
     
  15. Sevoflurane

    Sevoflurane Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    Early Oppo 103/105 firmware versions allowed SACDR playback but it was removed in later ones. Happily, the loophole allowing SACD ripping is intact, and ripped DSD files will play back from a USB drive, albeit without gapless playback.
     
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  16. JediJoker likes this.
  17. Sevoflurane

    Sevoflurane Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    Thanks to increased interest in DSD playback over the past few years, much more hardware is capable of playing DSD files vs. SACDR discs, so if anyone has got to the stage where they have a bunch of SACD ISOs (I have backup ISOs of all my SACDs) then extracting the tracks as DSF files is probably more useful than pursuing SACDR playback. If anyone is relying on SACDR playback and gets stranded by either a hardware failure or a firmware update that removes playback capability then this would be the way forward.

    The only discs that get played on my Oppo now are video ones. All of my music plays off a USB hard drive attached to the Oppo, including my SACD rips.
     
  18. bru87tr

    bru87tr Forum Resident

    Location:
    Lowell, MA
    Sony BDP-370 and 470 line plays SACD-r.

    For some reason, Sony could not make the firmware remove the capability because of the hardware. That's what I heard.
     
  19. Kiko1974

    Kiko1974 Forum Resident

    I'm on the same league as you. I received early this week Analogue Production's Hybrid SACD of the Planets directed by Zubin Mehta with the Los Angeles Philarmonic.As soon as I opened it gave the disc a spin to listen to it and then ripped it to an ISO and extracted the DSF files that went to a music-only SSD I have for music. After that the SACD was shelved.
     
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  20. shirtandtie

    shirtandtie Forum Resident

    This works wonderfully but is there a completely lossless file format that’ll play without the gaps?
     
  21. Sevoflurane

    Sevoflurane Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    Some kit is capable of playing DSD without gaps, some requires a bit of tinkering. On my Oppo, DSD won’t play gapless unless I rip a whole disc as DFF file with a CUE file. FLAC rips will play gapless on the Oppo if one selects the gapless option (press the option button when you get to the album and pick gapless from the bottom of the screen).
     
  22. shirtandtie

    shirtandtie Forum Resident

    I have an Oppo also. Is a DFF file a more accurate representation of the DSD information though? I mean, if I extracted the tracks from an .iso in .wav or FLAC, would I be missing something?
     
  23. Sevoflurane

    Sevoflurane Forum Resident

    Location:
    West Yorkshire
    If you convert an ISO of an SACD to WAV or FLAC you are converting DSD to PCM, so, no, that isn’t an accurate representation of DSD. I haven’t personally converted any DSD files to FLAC or WAV but I believe if it isn’t done carefully you can end up with a clipped file.

    A DSF or DFF file contains native DSD data. For the most part, converting to separate DSF files works well, but for gapless play on an Oppo converting the ISO into a single DFF with a CUE file is necessary. Other devices are apparently able to play DSF files gapless.

    Ripping and converting the files can be laborious, but once everything is sorted it works nicely and all of my music sits on a portable hard drive attached to the Oppo.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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  24. sa5150

    sa5150 Well-Known Member

    I have some ISO of sacds and I don't know how to play them , there only around 1.5gb which is kinda wasting a dvd-r , Is that the best way to try this ?
     
  25. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    Yes, assuming you mean converting the ISO to individual DSF files, and that you also have a DSD capable DAC to feed them to.
     

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