Cables, cables, cables...any tips? In the market (maybe)

Said it before, but since our host is asking for real world comparisons....

As an engineer, I myself was skeptical that a wire could make any sonic difference.

Came across some interconnects made by someone on a different forum - decided to give them a try over the standard white/red ic's that were included with some stuff I had.

Then I had a NFW experience that I was hearing something different.

Which led to an exploration of different ICs to where I am now.

I've compared many different ICs from MIT and Audioquest - all had different sounds...to my ears on my rig.

Some ICs did 'better' than others when combined with the components in my system....it was that synergy 'thang' that also gets kicked around a bit.

My poor analogy to my experience with IC's (and speaker cables as well) is like fine adjustments to a framed picture on the wall - the picture doesn't change, but it may look to be just a bit askew - high on one side, not quite 'level', and with a bit of 'tweaking' you get it to look just right.

 

Yes, kind of: I saved a sale from being returned. Phono cables that Pro-Ject sends out with their turntables and low end Audioquest cables made the Lounge LCR MKIII hum a bit for a customer. I built a pair of what will soon become Lounge Phono Cables and shipped them out, no hum, happy customer.

 

Not brands so much as cable types...

The recommendation to try litz cables is very good, but as speaker cables they don't always work... some speaker crossovers have a reactance that makes things just not work. I don't know exactly why, but the top end gets rolled off and they sound dull. If litz wire works for your setup it's the best way to go short of high purity silver.

As far as speaker cables in general, they are absolutely the most variable from system to system because there are much more differences from the amp to the speakers as there are in the transfer of signal performed by interconnects from component to component. IMO, there is no need to use anything better than heavy gauge ofc copper for most less expensive multi-way speakers because the sonic effect of the crossover will dominate the sound and you won't hear much difference between speaker cables. In this case it's unlikely any one cable will be significantly better but there will be differences. You really need a top-level or very simple crossover to realize the benefits of high end speaker cable. Cored inductors, unbypassed electrolytic capacitors and cheap resistors will impart so much of their own sound the speaker will sound similar no matter what you do.

On interconnects, copper will only get you so far, even the best will smooth over fine detail such as spatial cues and reverb trails, the sound of symbols decaying, the resonance of string instrument bodies, etc. If you want a system that is capable of resolving the fine details you need to use silver interconnects, but the problem it's a trade off... you get the detail but you also get harshness and a thin sound. That is until you get to UPOCC silver, which is pure enough and manufactured with no crystal boundaries, so this conductor will provide the detail without adding harshness, but it won't add the warmth and body copper adds so some say it sounds thin. There are different solutions to this issue, companies like Duelund use a heavy gauge conductor with a silk insulation that is soaked in mineral oil to keep the wire from tarnishing. This makes for a very warm and laid-back sound that only smears half the fine detail. Many different companies alloy gold with silver, this works and according to Siltech and Mundorf, the gold fills the gaps between the grain boundaries and keeps the wire from sounding harsh. There is also Ohno Continuous Cast silver/gold alloy wire made by Neotech.

On litz wire again, interconnects made with UPOCC silver or silver/gold alloy aren't cheap, if you're going to use a copper IC I would use one made with litz wire.

Power cables... Litz all the way. I think it's great performance on AC power is due to the damping involved with the construction of the wire, the strands are insulated in enamel and twisted or braided in a certain way that damps the wire. Vibration is HUGE with AC power so look for a cable that has a design that addresses this issue, and uses litz braid construction as well as litz-type wire. Silver gets super-expensive for power cables, this is truly for a no-budget system, you'll spend as much as a nice car outfitting your system with silver power cables. Just using Furutech GTX receptacles and FI-50 AC connectors will have a profound impact on the sound of a good system, these guys know AC power in and out... It's not a cheap way to go but I've seen extreme improvements using Furutech's top of the line receptacles and AC plugs. Off the shelf 10g OFC copper wire or mil-spec silver plated teflon in a 4-strand litz braid wrapped in cotton and techflex and using Furutech FI-50 connectors will smoke 90% of power cables regardless of price.


EDIT: good AC power is also very important, emi/rfi can cause a harshness that you will try to smooth out with cables and components and in doing so you will lose all of your fine detail.

 

I have soo been there!! Especially when I discovered power can make a difference, I didn't sleep for days after add a RSA DMITRI, I was ABing everything. I was floored and genuinely surprised. One of my Favorite albums BTW.

 

That's been my experience with solid core vs. stranded as well. Also with silver vs. copper. Right now I'm using 17g UPOCC copper litz wire with a woven cotton jacket. The wires are constructed using UPOCC wires that are individually insulated and braided around a flat film core. These wires are flat and resemble shoestrings (in fact you could lace up your Chucks with them and no one would be the wiser ). Then these individual cotton covered cables are braided once again in a simple geometry. These had a "wow" effect on my setup as I notice the braided cable throws a bigger soundstage and preserves fine details, note decay and reverb trails, better than anything I've used to this point.

This is a picture of the demo cables and not the finished product (the braiding is much nicer with the finished product but I just don't happen to have a picture handy of the finished ones). However they give you an idea of the braiding used. BTW I run these naked (without terminations). I never heard them with spades or bananas, but they sounded so good naked that I was afraid to add anything else in their way.

 

Has anyone used a UPS with filtered ac for their component line supplies? and which componemt is more susecptable to dirty mains, amp, pre amp. CD, TT?
For IC's what about digital coax or optical, I am using optical for the blu ray to amp and a coax for the CD-VCR dub to the amp.
Using the original IC's from TT to pre, low buget JVC TT for now but got higher quality IC's for pre to amp sounds very nice to my ears, using older 14ga monster cables to speakers they are the old bare wire clamp type technics.

 

This look nice. I bet they sound nice as well. Do you know the size of the strands withing the Litz ribbons? My DIY UPOCC cables used four runs of teflon 18AWG (16WAG effective). They were pretty good with my old amp, but I always felt like the size of the wire was the primary limiting factor of the design.

 

Out of the several brands I've tried over the years (Audioquest, Nordost, Kimber, Van Den Hul, Shunyata, Xindak, etc) my favourites are Tara Labs. In second place, Van Den Hul

 

That would be an unbiased 3rd party that makes no profit on the particular product.

 

and why would they? and who are they?

 

Of course, I agree. But these types of products are consumer products so I doubt an independent lab is interested in this, and cable makers certainly wouldn´t be. It will cost a lot of money and how to do the tests is very unclear for cables. It´s different for safety products, they are normally tested at special independent labs that are specialized in those types of tests.

 

Precisely. ...if there's no money in it nobody's interested.

 

I've been very happy with my DIY high-purity silver foil speaker cables for a very long time.

I am interested in silver ribbon interconnects from MG Audio Design in Colorado. Arnie Nuddel spoke very highly of them recently in TAS

http://mgaudiodesign.com/index.htm

 

My 2 bits worth.....some people believe they can hear an improvement with upgraded cables/IC's.... some don't. Some people believe in a higher power......some don't. Both are a never ending discussion and either side in either topic with never convince the other side of their beliefs, so these discussions always go in big circles and end up right back where they began. I personally go by basic rules of good clean, solid connections and wire/cable of the proper gauge for the length of run...beyond that I'm far too busy enjoying my music on my system to engage in what could be an endless upgrade cycle.

 

Foil is a good alternative to litz wire, the shape of the ribbon prevents skin effect issues. The MG cables I've heard are good if you like a warm, smooth presentation. It won't have the resolution or neutrality of UPOCC silver but it'll sound good I'm sure.

 

Interesting comment.

 

The 17g are made with 4 strand braid of the 20g and the 11g 4 strand braid of the 14g. I use these with the Decware 6 watt amp and the Omega Rs7s which are fairly efficient and of course no crossover. If I had speakers a little less efficient and amps with a little more power I would go with 14g or possibbly even 11g.

 

Here is my philosophy on audio cabling:

· For speaker cables: They need to have proper inductance,, capacitance and resistance characteristics so as not to alter the speakers frequency response, to not reduce amp’s damping factor and sufficient gauge size so as not to starve the amp of its ability to deliver current as needed.

· For IC’s. They need to be properly shielded from RFI/EMI, have low resistance and capacitance, be properly terminated with connectors that function in a trouble free manner (ie not oxidize or corrode) for as long as I use them.

· For power cords: I would choose capably built cords which have low inductance properties (to match the low inductance Romex that is in our walls) and which are of sufficient gauge (at least 14 gauge) so as not to starve current from being delivered to component.

 

The Neotech 20g litz wire has about 256 strands of 44g upocc copper braided around a flat film core.

 

This is interesting. For me, Audience Au24 interconnects are as clear as a bell. Then again, I'm in a 'live' room...

 

I really do believe the equipment used, room dynamics, and the person listening all contribute to the degree and perception level of changes with cables. For you and your circumstances it is perceived one way, for someone in a different set of circumstances, it's another. Even swapping cables in various parts of the signal change can have an effect.

I was (and still am) a very fond user of both Belden and Canare cables. I've tried a number of significantly higher priced cables and to me it was not sounding that much better or if there was it was such a small amount that the economics came into play.

Is it worth $700 to get that fraction of improvement? Is it better to pay $7000 for a 10' run of speaker cables or $7000 on new Harbeth 30.1's? Which is going to give the most impact in a system? Or if you have the 30.1's is it better to go to 40.1 or get the $7000 speaker cables?

It also seems like some hold onto cables for years while others swap them out faster than a rabbit in heat. Steve H. made a very good point that used cables drop drastically in price so to try out something new (or newish) doesn't hurt as much as the retail price. I do wonder why a cable drops drastically in price used where equipment (quality) does not.

It was actually a member on these forums that recommended some homegrown cables from Stager (Solid Silvers) that I used in the chain between TT and pre and have to say I was finally able to find a cable that I went "ok, this is sounding good, better, yes a real and defined difference". Not drastic but a very real and perceived difference in sound to me and to others listening. And they are reasonably priced. $125 for a .75 meter silver cable is pretty good deal in the price range of cables asked for by various manufacturers. The other thing about the Stagers was they sounded great from the start. No break in needed. Actually I have many hours on them and if there was a further improved sound it is lost on me.

I've been trying many different cables out and the thought that is starting to form is that maybe its the solid silver construction of the cables that is what I'm finding appealing to my ears.

I believe I will be trying out two more sets to go from pre to amp and also picking up a set of Lectraline speaker cables (once I find a reasonable price for them - read used). For the length I would need (3m) that's $1000 new for speaker cables.

Speaker cables are half the price of an Dynavector XX-2. So which would give me a more dramatic and readily noticeable difference in the system?

 

Upinsmoke, I agree with your thoughts about value, and the fact is spending a lot of cash on cables for a modest system doesn't make sense. It is a system though so a balance must be struck to get the best bang for your buck. If you plan on upgrading in the future then having decent, neutral cables and clean AC power will allow you to evaluate upgrades to your system with more accuracy, you don't want to select components to balance out the sound of "voiced" cables or to smooth out harshness from dirty AC power.

 

Although it's hard to break down component spending into percentages (there was another thread that tried, I think), few would think more than 10-15% for cables is appropriate, and perhaps less.