Can a phono preamp amplify ticks and pops?

Audio Asylum Thread Printer

RE: Exactly - John Elison - Vinyl Asylum

The graphic in the first link is no longer there as it is a very old post. I have no experience with digitally recording vinyl or measuring the results but I would tend to trust the above poster (he's a pretty knowledgeable guy) if he says that he has records with peaks that reach 20 dB and more (and can play them).

 

I tried to see if I could find any of these very high velocity clicks, I couldn´t. But I found some with much lower velocities. There are small clicks through the clip, and at the end of this clip there is a click with about half the velocity of +20dB, it´s very loud. I don´t think this is what the OP is talking about.

Dropbox - Clicks.wav

 

Those sound like the small clicks that I only heard with the iFi. The annoying ones were just the regular clicks and pops you hear, only they were louder than I got through the Fisher. Interesting stuff though.

 

So I pulled out my SL1200 that has an AT440mla on it, a much lower output cartridge, and used the lower gain settings. Things were a little better but compared to the Fisher the clicks and pops were still more emphasized. The iFi is going back Monday. The gentleman I got it from is aware of the phenomenon. He is of the opinion it's not unusual and that to get the improvements in sound the iFi gave over the Fisher with the "deemphasis" of surface noise you have to move up the "phono preamp food chain". Theres a fair amount written on the various forums about this if you look specifically for it. The guy that designs Atmosphere gear had some real interesting things to say and seems to be describing what I heard.

Checkout his post about halfway down.

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/surface-noise-and-cartridge-phono-pre

So I think I'm going to try a passive design using no or little negative feedback.

 

Sound like cleaner records and/or stylus in the groove geometry adjustments to me. Ifi just kicking out the input provided to it I believe.

 

Better phono stages tend to exaggerate clicks and pops against something of generally lower resolution. It's possible then Iphono has a lack of headroom compared with other designs. I know my stage has large headroom but a bad pop or occurrence of non-fill can still be pretty intrusive even if it disappears in an instant. I've not heard anything that suppresses pops to near inaudibility but general background hash and crackle can be reduced. It is also worth noting that the cartridge and stylus profile will play an important part here as well as clean records that are in excellent condition. A better turntable that damps the vinyl to produce a blacker background also improves things. There is an inevitable trade off between higher resolution and intrusiveness of pressing nasties here.

 

I don't take quite as universal a view as that on quality being inseparable from surface noise. I do agree that most of it can and should be addressed at the record surface however, through record cleaning and stylus selection and alignment. I have heard and I prefer a phono stage that does not exaggerate surface noise, and several that I have heard, I would describe as being very high quality, vs some others that seem to be harder to listen to in that regard. High resolution will provide a quite frank view of the noise encountered, that I do agree with, but care taken in design which provides the voicing of a phono stage can provide both high resolution and a smoother sound without so much emphasis on noise.
-Bill

 

Nope. Works perfect with a Fisher and records are all cleaned on an RCM and the same problem with an SL1200 and AT440 aligned with a Mint Protractor

 

He, and Ralph Karsten at Atmashphere, are right.

I've used a zero feedback design (Aqvox Phono 2CI) for about 10 years now and it is highly resolving while at the same time seemingly minimizing the effects of surface noise and ticks and pops. Better phono stages are capable of this but it probably, as I alluded to earlier, comes at a price.

 

Not the first time I've been wrong. This good sounding Ifi thing, with this and reliability issues commonly reported, is seeming a bit "iffy" at the moment!

 

That link doesn't work. You should also link to the specific post ; not the thread.

 

surface noise and cartridge/ phono pre questions | Audiogon Discussion Forum

It's halfway down by Atmosphere.

 

Thanks for that!

I had no idea. This thread has certainly been an educational experience. Thanks for bringing this to my attention. Although some find the ticks and pops charming and a nice reminder that you're listening to vinyl, I abhor them so it's nice to know there are phono preamps which might help in minimizing those intrusive noises.

The only unfortunate part is the fact that a lot of manufacturers might not be as forthcoming with that info as I'd like them to be.

For instance, I have no way of confirming whether my Dynavector P75 preamp uses "loop feedback" for the RIAA curve nor whether it uses active or passive EQ'ing.

 

I'm totally not a fan of surface noise. I hit all of my LPs with an RCM and use an Onzow Zerodust to clean my stylus before each listening session and often go through a copy or two of the same LP in search of a good, quiet pressing. My first phonostage were NAD and Rotel units and I was a kid and probably not as picky. When I got back into vinyl I ended grabbing a Lehmann Black Cube because of the reviews and the fact I got a good deal on one. Turns out it's a passive design. I then went to a Fisher 500c because it was more fun to listen too though less accurate. So when I started living with the iFi iPhono after a couple of days of listening the increased surface noise was just too annoying. I had no idea this was even a thing. Crazy.

I have noticed that it's hard to find out the actual circuit details of lots of phono preamp but have noticed that the companies that using passive equalization and no NFB tend to brag about it like Lehmann and Decware do.

Oh and I can tell you that the Dynavector P75 mk3 doesn't amplify the clicks and pops like the iFi does. I have a really quiet Living Stereo pressing of "Everything but the Beer", one of the quietest Living Stereo pressing that I've heard, and have listened to it several times on a P75. The few clicks and pops weren't as noticable as they are on the iFi.

After doing a bit of reading and talking with people I've come to the conclusion and to agree with the people that say that surface noise is amplified by active equalization and negative feedback and lack of headroom. So am now looking for a passively equalized, low or no NFB design with lots of headroom. Unfortunately the price of a preamp meeting those requirements seems to be around 2 times that if the iFi or more.

Preamps that look interesting are the Magi Phono Preamp, Decware, and the Lehmann Decade. A friend also recommended trying out some classic Audio Research preamps like the SP8.

 

That's good to know. Info can occasionally seem a bit hard to come by but it's interesting that you point out how manufacturers are keen on volunteering these specific specs if their products happen to feature them. Again, that helps.

By that token, I'd have to expect the P75 to at least either use active RIAA or NFB as the website doesn't seem to brag about much in that regard and I bet it'd be possible to quiet them down a bit.

I'm starting to wonder if there's not a correlation between active RIAA and a higher SNR. Seems to be some sort of pattern I've observed. Of course, being relatively green, I could easily be wrong in that regard.

Perhaps the P75 isn't as prone to bringing as much attention to these unwanted noises as the iPhono 2 does but I'm always open to the possibility of eventually obtaining something better. If it were up to me, I'd like to have something which sounds tubey (without sounding artificially tubby) with plenty of slam but also much quieter. Prior to owning a turntable, I had no idea how much noise phono preamps can introduce. Apparently the iPhono 2 is great at being quiet but I'm wondering if a best-of-both-worlds option exists which wouldn't require me to remortgage the house to end up with one.