Can you *really* spot the differences between SACD, DVD-A and CD?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by fjhuerta, Oct 8, 2003.

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  1. fjhuerta

    fjhuerta New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    México City
    Yep, that's my idea... upsampling to 88.2K or a multiple of 44.1. My CD player has 1-bit converters and an 8X oversampling filter, so I guess it's more basic than anything else (even though it's built like a tank and made in Japan).
     
  2. fjhuerta

    fjhuerta New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    México City
    Thom, I'm not so sure about it. I did an experiment a couple of months ago - I created sine waves from 1 KHz to 20 KHz at 44.1 / 16. The results were interesting - starting at around 4 ~ 5 KHz, the wave stopped ressembling a sine wave, and lots of artifacts occurred. By 10 KHz, it looked a lot more like a couple of phase-shifted sine waves thrown together, and by 20 KHz, it didn't resemble anything at all. I shudder to think how the Fourier Transform of that thing looks. :)

    If anything, after that experiment I thought that maybe we really need at least a 96 KHz sampling frequency, in order to stop those artifacts...
     
  3. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
  4. thomh

    thomh New Member

    Location:
    Norway
    Why chill out and experience the other joys that life can offer, of course. ;)

    Well, I did say "unlikely" and not "can't". So I did open a window of chance here.

    Thom
     
  5. thomh

    thomh New Member

    Location:
    Norway
    You did not mention if the signal was dithered or undithered and at what level.

    Thom
     
  6. AudioEnz

    AudioEnz Senior Member

    The reason for this is because eveything over 22kHz is cut off. The distortion in the sine waves are because the harmonics above 22kHz aren't there.

    This is all explained in digital theory and the Nyquist (sp?) theories. According to digital theory, this creates no problem, as we can't hear that high any how.
     
  7. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    "Who wants adequate? Not me. I want outstanding sound."

    Well said.

    There is a huge difference between redbook and all three hirez formats: SACD and DVDA and LP.

    I think Mike Fremer stated it best in the recent SGHT when he said that DVDA sounds more "pristine" and SACD sounds more "analog". They are both excellent formats in their own way but I do feel that Super Audio has a more analog sound that I like.

    As far as what you hear over redbook with either format I would offer up the following:

    Better, bigger soundstage
    More detail
    More liquid midrange
    Better instrument tonality

    I still think PCM limits what DVDA can do with cymbals and transients but at 192k they are okay.
     
  8. fjhuerta

    fjhuerta New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    México City
    Undithered, 100%.
     
  9. fjhuerta

    fjhuerta New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    México City
    Nyquist's Theorem states that any signal can be represented as long as it's half the frequency of the sampling rate.

    But, according to my own tests, frequencies at around 4 ~ 5 KHz seemed to be affected because of the low sampling frequency. While we can't really listen to 22 KHz, I'd say having anomalies at 5 KHz is a bit worrying...

    Maybe that's the reason LP's can sound different to CD's, after all.
     
  10. AudioEnz

    AudioEnz Senior Member

    That's a good summation.

    This is because the harmonics are no longer there. This is how things should be according to digital theory.

    What's worrying me is that I'm starting to sound like some of the plonkers on rec.audio.high-end...
     
  11. fjhuerta

    fjhuerta New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    México City
    Not by any means. Thanks for reminding me about harmonics - I had completely forgotten about them... now I'm a bit wiser. :)
     
  12. thomh

    thomh New Member

    Location:
    Norway
    Your test is invalid. A DAC should never be presented with an undithered signal. Try it again and report back.

    Thom
     
  13. fjhuerta

    fjhuerta New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    México City
    So, I googled "dither".

    http://www.earlevel.com/Digital Audio/Dither.html

    GREAT reading - thanks. But this still doesn't address what happens to the missing harmonics; and I guess that's what I'm looking at in my original sine waves. I never fed those signals to a DAC; I simply looked at them in my computer screen.

    From the article:

    Since I created the sine wave at 44.1 / 16 to begin with, and in the digital domain, it would have been impossible to dither it, anyway. I believe what I just did was create the best-case scenario for sine waves on a CD. And the results don't look good. :(
     
  14. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    Anybody do any double blind tests? If not, how do you know that your findings aren't based in psychological phenomena?

    There is a thread on AA about a filter switch on the Marantz SA-14 that enables the user to select either a 50K or 100K setting (Standard or Custom). Several contributors claimed to hear a difference between the two, but none verified that they didn't know which setting they were testing. I subjected two listeners to a blind comparison of this filter switch on my own, but neither could arrive at any agreement over which setting they were hearing. Furthermore, neither person could say for certain whether the source material they heard (1 a CD, the other an SACD) was coming from an SACD or a CD.

    The above was done after I had enlisted my wife to subject me to a DBT on the switch with the following conclusions: 1. I could fool myself into thinking that there was a wider sound stage in the custom mode, but only when I knew it was in the custom mode. 2. The Marantz owners manual points out that the custom mode is intended for modern equipment that can make use of the wider bandwidth. Apparently the Quicksilver amp and Rogue preamp I use don't offer sufficient high frequency extension to enable hearing the difference between a 50K and 100K filter setting. 3. As it is with most audiophools who claim to hear differences that aren't there, this test just demonstrates to me that the guy who wrote the described differences in the link below is afflicted by the emperor's new clothes syndrome. 4. My aging ears can't hear high enough frequencies to render the difference important. Neither could my wife — who remarked, "maybe the switch isn't working."

    http://www.AudioAsylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/153661.html

    I admit that I do not look at a computer screen while I am engaged in any kind of audio assessment. IMVHO, this demonstrates nothing other than the fact that computational devices measuring sine waves aren't the equivalent of human ears; nor are they impeded by the vagaries of human perception.

    I own several 16/44.1 CDs that sound as good as or better than any SACD I have ever heard. Unfortunately these are not available in the SACD format, so I have no way of knowing whether their sound would improve in the higher resolution format.
     
  15. fjhuerta

    fjhuerta New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    México City
    Uhm... I don't think it's a good idea to talk about DBT's. Remember the forum rules! :D
     
  16. sgb

    sgb Senior Member

    Location:
    Baton Rouge
    Oops! I didn't know it was against the rule to mention DBTs. I am not a proponent of them necessarily, but I DO believe that we are all influenced by what we think we want to hear.

    As much as I have invested in the SACD format, in both software and hardware, I can say in all honesty that I have not heard that many recordings that have shouted out to me that the format itself is what has made the difference.
     
  17. ACK!

    ACK! Senior Member

    Location:
    New Hampshire
    It also depends largely on how the disc is mixed and mastered...I would put DCC's Hotel California against anything out there because it has a full, warm and bright sound. Probably the best-sounding CD I've ever bought.

    You have to master a disc properly to take full advantage of a format.
     
  18. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    There are plenty of well mastered SACDs.

    Regards,
    Geoff
     
  19. petzi

    petzi Forum Resident

    Location:
    Germany
    It is an interesting post though. If I remember correctly, it is not forbidden to talk about DBTs or the results you got from them, it is only forbidden to argue "DBT" vs. "subjective assessment"...
     
  20. fjhuerta

    fjhuerta New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    México City
    Neither am I against DBT's (quite the contrary), but it would be quite a punishing task to subject yourself to a DBT with sine waves :D

    SGB, that's something I can't quite understand - the second I listened to my "Carmina Burana" SACD, I simply knew there was something very different going on. Same thing with my Pink Floyd SACD (those were my first SACD's, BTW). Maybe I just wanted to hear things - now I won't be able to know for sure for a while, since my SACD is on a box with all my other stuff (I'll be moving shortly).
     
  21. ACK!

    ACK! Senior Member

    Location:
    New Hampshire
    I was saying that as a general statement.
     
  22. SamS

    SamS Forum Legend

    Location:
    Texas
    I agree 100%.

    I usually have no problem hearing the benefits of SACD over standard redbook discs. Sometimes though, good ol CD can hold it's own vs. some SACD releases. The Police SACD sound very much like a good CD to me. On the other hand, the MFSL SACD "Blues In Orbit" hybrid disc makes a big difference depending on which layer you select. No contest in favor of DSD in this instance.

    I did a comparision last month between the Metallica S/T DVD-A stereo tracks vs. the standard 16/44.1 CD. The comparision was probably skewed because the DVD-A player I used was a $300 Panasonic model and I played the CD back on a $3000 Sony SACD machine. I prefered the CD on my Sony because it had a more rounded, less harsh sound. Comparisions on a high-end DVD-A player may have yielded different results.
     
  23. KeithH

    KeithH Success With Honor...then and now

    Location:
    Beaver Stadium
    Lee said:

    Not to flame here, but from a technical standpoint, is LP truly considered hi-rez? I do not purport to be a vinyl expert, but I didn't think the LP has the specs. (e.g., dynamic range) in its favor. Again, not to flame, but some people say that the warmth or analog quality that people like with vinyl (and tubes too) is actually caused by distortion. :confused:
     
  24. thomh

    thomh New Member

    Location:
    Norway
    True. CD beats the crap out of it with regards to dynamic range. However, that said, there is something about those euphonic colorations that hits the sweespot when I'm in the mood. So I could not live without it.

    Thom
     
  25. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Dynamic range is one parameter that can be measured, and it's true that the theoretical dynamic range of CD is greater than LP. Frequency response can also be measured easily, and FR curves of CD players are often as flat as a pancake, where as a cartridge typically shows a wide variation from flat.

    If you were a numbers junkie you would conclude that CD was superior.

    But one listen to a good 'table with a nice phone stage will convince you that vinyl has some real magic that CD lacks. SACD has some of the magic, but not as much as vinyl.

    It's not "euphonic colourations" - its a complete lack of grain and superior microdynamic responses that give analogue life.

    Regards,
    Geoff
     
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