Cantilever parallel yet still hearing distortion?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Knicknack, May 20, 2018.

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  1. Knicknack

    Knicknack Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    My Grado Prestige Green cantilever is perfectly parallel to the grid lines yet I’m still hearing distortion? Cartridge or record?
     
  2. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    How could we know? New records, old records, all records? Throughout the disc, both at outer and inner radius? Tracking force? Pictures showing alignment at both inner and outer grid? Anti=skate setting? Type of turntable and tonearm?
     
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  3. Warren Jarrett

    Warren Jarrett Audio Note (UK) dealer in SoCal/LA-OC In Memoriam

    Location:
    Fullerton, CA
    I would clean the stylus, confirm alignment with a protractor, make sure anti-skate is applying the right force (see below), measure the tracking force with a scale, and try a little higher tracking force.

    When you set the needle down onto a spinning record, look carefully at any sudden yank sideways on the cantilever. Adjust the anti-skate to eliminate that sideways "yank".
     
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  4. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Just looked up your cartridge, Grado says it is stylus type "E" which should be elliptical but what radius ???? (shame on Grado)
    At what part of the record are you hearing distortion? at only the inner groove, or the entire record?

    1) if the stylus is a 0.4 x 0.7, then it will produce audible distortion on more demanding passages from the mid part of the LP to the inner groove.
    2) if the stylus is a 0.3 x 0.7, then it will produce audible distortion on more demanding passages at the inner groove (inner track)
    3) if the stylus is a 0.2 x 0.7, then it should sound distortion free always, but barely audible distortion on the most demanding passage at the innermost groove.

    Excess skating force or anti-skate can cause the cantilever to angle off-center. Observe the cantilever as the stylus first settles in the groove. Does it remain centered as the record plays? Test this at the second track.. not the outer track as you'll always have skating on the lead in ramp.
    1) if the cantilever angles toward the outer edge, the arm is skating IN (apply more anti-skate)
    2) if the cantilever angles toward the label, the arm is skating OUT (apply less anti-skate)
    Skating is always the opposite direction of the cantilever lean.

    Another cause of distortion could be a dirty stylus, tight pivot bearings, can be a cue platform not retracting all the way, (this interference often occurs after changing cartridges as they are different heights) can be a defective stylus. One of the leading causes of distortion is the record itself, a dirty groove, or worn groove. Wear is sometimes not obvious to the eye. There is the possibility you have a bad connection at the cartridge, or RCA plug.
     
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  5. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    What they said above. And can you describe what you are hearing exactly?
     
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  6. slovell

    slovell Retired Mudshark

    Location:
    Chesnee, SC, USA
    Overhang?
     
  7. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    How can overhang be off if cantilever is perfectly aligned at both grids? Don't disagree that it could be a problem, but that would mean the OP in not correct when he says "perfectly parallel to the grid lines", one of the reasons I asked for some photos :).
     
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  8. Mitsuman

    Mitsuman Diamond Tone Junkie

    Location:
    Missouri
    What tonearm is it mounted to?
     
  9. slovell

    slovell Retired Mudshark

    Location:
    Chesnee, SC, USA
    The cantilever can be parallel to the grid lines and the overhang can still be off. You're right, need photos to see what he's talking about.
     
  10. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    But if the overhang is off, you can't be parallel at both the inner and outer null point grids, that's what the overhang is for. You can be close, though :)
     
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  11. punkmusick

    punkmusick Amateur drummer

    Location:
    Brazil
    As long as know, you measure overhang so the cantilever can be aligned. If it is aligned, it's fine.
     
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  12. vinylontubes

    vinylontubes Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy, TX
    Align the stylus not the cantilever or the cartridge body. You will get much better results.
     
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  13. slovell

    slovell Retired Mudshark

    Location:
    Chesnee, SC, USA
    The OP didn't say both grids, just parallel to the grid lines. Just making a suggestion. :D
     
  14. Leonthepro

    Leonthepro Skeptically Optimistic

    Location:
    Sweden
    How do you do that without a microscope?
     
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  15. Mitsuman

    Mitsuman Diamond Tone Junkie

    Location:
    Missouri
    It’s PFM.......















    Pure friggen magic. :p
     
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  16. Knicknack

    Knicknack Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    How do you align the stylus, what do you mean? Isn’t that the small point?
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2018
  17. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Doing that would require some type of microscope arrangement. Once you get the stylus aligned, make final adjustments by ear. You want to listen for timing anomalies between the right and left channels. Female vocals will also sound most natural when it's correct (same goes for azimuth).
     
  18. Knicknack

    Knicknack Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    So once I get the overhang I should start twisting the cartridge until it sounds right? This is what I did this morning and I got it, but the screws were too loose and I lost the place of the cartridge.
     
  19. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    Twist it until the stylus is aligned to the grids. From there, adjust the twist (zenith) by ear.
     
  20. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    If the stylus is placed on the "dot" on the grid, the overhang does not need to be adjusted. If one tries to adjust the overhang first, then tries to align to the protractor, the cartridge and cantilever (sometimes) do not line up. The cartridge would (sometimes) need to be twisted slightly.

    When setting up by the overhang method, it should be the only method. The cartridge body should be parallel to the headshell.
    When setting up via protractor, forget the overhang. It'll drive you crazy. The two methods are not compatible.
     
  21. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Yea, I don't really follow but that's OK, I just assumed the OP was using a 2-point universal type protractor, but as pointed out above, that was just my assumption and probably not right, instead maybe something like that Rega thing with just one grid, and you obviously agree. No biggie, I'll bow out now and leave it to some of you who better understood the OP :)
     
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  22. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    No problem Davey. :righton: This can be confusing and very debatable.. the simplest method is by the overhang gauge that comes with the turntable. It is engineered to the arc of the arm and headshell offset. A two point protractor isn't always the best alignment in every case. (worst case not far off) You can get the null points right on for sure, but the arc of the arm and other geometric variables may cause more tracking error than we are aware of.
     
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  23. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    Well, I don't think it's especially debatable or confusing, if you have a gauge to adjust the overhang and only care about that one alignment type, then it's pretty simple to align the cartridge body or cantiliever to the grid, and that's all you need. An arc protractor is the same thing, it separates the overhang from the offset adjustment. The 2-point protractors are the ones that are confusing to a lot of people since the two adjustments are intermingled.
     
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  24. Knicknack

    Knicknack Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Well, got it again, or rather close enough to my liking with the GeoDisc. With a Debut Carbon DC using the Feickert proved to be a little difficult, but we're all set again, and with tighter screws!
     
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  25. izgoblin

    izgoblin Forum Resident

    I'm not the OP, but thanks for this - I never thought to look for it myself but will do when I'm next playing some records.

    I recently had to replace my cart because my cantilever was bent. $550 I really didn't want to spend. I'm honestly not even sure how that happened. Does it seem likely that months worth of playing records with anti-skate not adjusted properly could result in a permanently bent cantilever?
     
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