Captain Beefheart Safe As Milk from the MONO master on Sundazed!!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Laservampire, Jul 19, 2012.

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  1. kwadguy

    kwadguy Senior Member

    Location:
    Cambridge, MA
    Since this is the second Sundazed mono release apparently a recreation (the first being the 2nd Mamas & Papas album), they should just start a "Monomania: Not mono, but an incredible simulation!" series..

    .[​IMG]
     
  2. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    [​IMG]
     
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  3. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Previous analysis:

    Autumn's Child
    Grown So Ugly
    Electricity
    Where There's Woman
    Abba Zaba
    Plastic Factory
    I'm Glad
    Call on Me
    Dropout Boogie

    Next up: Sure 'Nuff N' Yes I Do

    The intro is edited on from the stereo mix, with the edit occurring almost exactly at 0:27:

    [​IMG]

    It seems that there's a bit of EQ and/or NR to keep some of the noise down, and both the mono LP and Buddha CD (stereo mix) have a bit more high end (the mono LP also has rumble not on the Sundazed, as to be expected). Oddly, again, there's some distortion on the Sundazed not present on either of those other two sources. It's especially evident (both visibly and aurally) on "came upon a tornado" from about 0:13 to 016.

    Past the intro, the Sundazed is slightly brighter, and again slightly more distorted, than the mono LP.

    The fade is also edited on from the stereo mix, with the edit occurring at 2:04:

    [​IMG]
     
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  4. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Previous analysis:

    Autumn's Child
    Grown So Ugly
    Electricity
    Where There's Woman
    Abba Zaba
    Plastic Factory
    I'm Glad
    Call on Me
    Dropout Boogie
    Sure 'Nuff N' Yes I Do

    Next up: Yellow Brick Road

    The intro doesn't *seem* to be edited on. The intro is about 3/4 second longer in stereo, and the Sundazed seems to match the mono LP exactly. Also, the polarity is reversed on the mono and stereo mixes, and the Sundazed matches the mono.

    The Sundazed is slightly brighter and more distorted than my friend's mono LP. This is probably most noticeable on "sunshine" at 1:39; my friend's LP plays cleanly, while the Sundazed is noticeably spitty. There also a number of clicks/pops throughout not present on said LP, notably a larger one at 2:17.

    The fade is not edited on, but is about a second and a half earlier than the mono LP:

    [​IMG]

    The Sundazed 45 matches the CD.
     
  5. Man, these are a nice pair of analyses you did today. Seriously waiting in anticipation for the final song, Luke. Hope all goes well for you on this last one ("Zig Zag Wanderer")!

    BTW, regarding this:
    From the most recent post to their page: https://www.facebook.com/sundazed/posts/10153680669593791

    Interestingly enough, Sundazed still hasn't commented on this since it was posted Thursday as of this writing (or at all on their page for exactly a week now since last Tuesday). But per your request, here's a screencap just in case it does get taken down:

    [​IMG]

    If anyone else wants me to screencap some other FB comments mentioned in this thread for posterity, please let me know and I'll happily do so.
     
  6. izgoblin

    izgoblin Forum Resident

    To that same point, imagine if someone had access to multiple film prints and used the scratchiest of the available prints to include in their restoration. Then imagine they also used a film print from a foreign release that was edited differently than the original cut and then marketed it as a restoration of that original cut rather than the foreign alternate version. In that circumstance, people would understandably be bugged, wouldn't you think?
     
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  7. jacethecrowl

    jacethecrowl Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    C'mon, why would anybody do such a thing? And why would Sundazed go out of their way to do deliberately shoddy work (and I'm not saying they have) if a straight mono transfer were possible? Spectral analyses aside, I'm just saying we don't have enough info about about their chosen approach. I remain a skeptic -- from a different angle than the rest of this thread.
     
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  8. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    We don't have enough info? In what way?

    A straight mono transfer of a mono LP (or LPs) is certainly possible. And preferable.
     
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  9. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Based on Luke's analysis, we know in detail what their chosen approach was. We don't know WHY they chose that approach, but we do know what approach they used. And we know that their choice was not due to the fact that a "straight mono transfer" wasn't possible, since of course they could easily have acquired one or more LPs and done a straight needle drop.
     
  10. kanno1ae

    kanno1ae Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas, USA
    I remember reading someone's explanation why several pages ago (might have been Luke), and it's the only one that makes sense to me. Pieces of the stereo mix folded to mono were edited in to hide vinyl noise, turntable rumble, etc.
     
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  11. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Yeah, that is definitely the most plausible theory. I just meant we do not know for certain if that's why they did it. Whereas we do know for certain what they did.
     
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  12. jomo48

    jomo48 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Davis CA, USA
    I've decided to call this forensic audio engineering. More entertaining than CSI.
     
  13. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    There is a reality tv show here had we had the cameras rolling locally.
     
  14. kanno1ae

    kanno1ae Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas, USA
    The only other possible explanation I can think of is that they were replacing audio segments where the vinyl was damaged; however, the replaced segments would have to be more random for this to be a plausible reason. From what I've read, it seems pretty strategic the parts that were replaced (quiet passages, intros, fade-outs), which brings us back to the first explanation. I want to clearly state, though, that I have not heard the Sundazed CD, nor an original mono vinyl, nor the stereo CD. I'm only summarizing what others have said based on what I've read here.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2016
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  15. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Previous analysis:

    Autumn's Child
    Grown So Ugly
    Electricity
    Where There's Woman
    Abba Zaba
    Plastic Factory
    I'm Glad
    Call on Me
    Dropout Boogie
    Sure 'Nuff N' Yes I Do
    Yellow Brick Road

    Last up: Zig Zag Wanderer

    For the most part, I didn't analyze the songs in any particular order, and Zig Zag Wanderer just happened to come last. But as it turns out, it is perhaps most surprising.

    Almost the entire song is the stereo mix folded down. The only sections from the mono mix are the sections with backing vocals:

    0:55.03 - 0:56.25
    0:58.15 - 0:59.73
    1:01.35 - 1:02.78
    1:04.61 - 1:06.01
    1:07.87 - 1:09.70
    1:17.62 - 1:19.28
    1:20.91 - 1:22.68
    1:24.14 - 1:25.49
    1:47.00 - 1:48.43
    1:49.91 - 1:51.82
    1:53.52 - 1:55.11
    1:56.56 - 1:57.95
    1:59.58 - 2:01.22
    2:03.01 - 2:04.45
    2:11.22 - 2:17.87

    All combined, that's just about 28 seconds from the mono mix, as opposed to about 2:05 from the stereo mix.

    The fade is also slightly longer than the mono mix.

    [​IMG]

    One note: most, if not all (I gave up checking every spot once it became clear how many there were) of the edited in sections from the mono mix have inverted polarity. That is, the polarity of the mono and stereo mixes match, as does the polarity of the sections of the Sundazed from the stereo mix, but the sections from the mono mix differ. Weird.

    What I find interesting is that for the most part, I don't think the mono mix is *that* different for most of the edited in sections. On the last section (at 2:11) there's some reverb not noticeable in the stereo mix, and the backing vocals are probably a hair louder, but it's arguably not a night and day difference. On the other hand, there are a few spots in the mono mix that *do* stick out to me. At 1:32 and 2:21, there are breath intakes that are quite audible in the mono mix but not on the stereo mix. Except the Sundazed actually uses the stereo mix in those spots. Quite perplexing.

    That does it. Let me know if there's anything you want explained in more detail, comparison samples, etc. I'll probably write up a quick summary of each song later.
     
  16. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    I have one more theory: Sundazed thought they could "create" a better sounding version of the mono mix than a straight needledrop.

    It was a LOT more work to do what they did, than to buy 5 mono lp's and needledrop it. Also, since this album does not have good sound to begin with, a straight needledrop would have been easier to get away with. Someone would have asked if it was needledropped. Sundazed would reply no, show the tape box, and not much more could be proven.

    The editing (especially the ending of Electricity) was provable.

    Luke has discovered that the parts that are spliced in from the stereo are the parts where a needledrop has problems.

    Set aside the deception aspect for a minute, and let me ask this question: Does the Sundazed sound better than a quality needledrop?
     
  17. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Here's a summary of each song:

    Sure 'Nuff N' Yes I Do - Intro edited on from fold-down of stereo mix (0:27). Slightly more distorted than a clean mono LP. Ending edited on from fold-down of stereo mix (2:04).
    Zig Zag Wanderer - Most of song comprised of fold-down of stereo mix. 15 sections with backing vocals (28 seconds total) are edited in from the mono mix, which has inverted polarity.
    Call on Me - Intro edited on from fold-down of stereo mix (0:03). Ending edited on from fold-down of stereo mix (2:21). Runs nearly 1% faster than mono LP. Brighter than mono LP, and significantly more distorted than a clean copy.
    Dropout Boogie - Break (1:14 to 1:19) edited on from left channel of stereo mix. Fades a half second earlier than mono LP. Similar EQ to mono LP, but over 1% faster and significantly more distorted.
    I'm Glad - Intro edited on from fold-down of stereo mix (0:17). Ending edited on from fold-down of stereo mix (3:14). Intro runs slow, but most of song is extremely similar to the mono LP, other than some additional distortion in places (ex: "glad" at about 3:12).
    Electricity - Fold-down of stereo mix edited in from 0:04 to 0:12. More distortion than clean copy of mono LP in places (ex: "SHoutS the truth peaCefully" is particularly spitty at 0:21). Ending edited on from fold-down of stereo mix (2:53), notable due to presence of backing track that isn't on the mono mix.

    Yellow Brick Road - Slightly brighter and more distorted than a clean mono LP (ex: "sunshine" at 1:39). Also noticeable noises in places (ex: pop at 2:17). Fades about a second and a half earlier than mono LP. Sundazed 45 matches.
    Abba Zaba - Overall quite similar to a clean mono LP. Ending edited on from fold-down of stereo mix (2:35). Sundazed 45 matches.
    Plastic Factory - Many noises throughout not present on clean mono LP (ex: 1:47). 5 edits (1:06, 1:22, 1:33, 2:42, 2:52) that likely remove large pops. Ending edited on from fold-down of stereo mix (2:56). Sundazed 45 matches.
    Where There's Woman - Edits to apparently remove large pops (ex: 1:14). Fades a half second earlier than mono LP. Evidence of surface noise in fade.
    Grown So Ugly - Intro (0:00 - 0:09), middle section (1:14 - 1:50), and ending (2:16 - 2:26) edited on from fold-down of stereo mix. Additional noise and distortion compared to clean mono LP.
    Autumn's Child - Most of song comprised of fold-down of stereo mix. 16 breaks (0:20, 0:23, 0:26, 0:29, 1:26, 1:29, 1:32, 3:21, 3:24, 3:27, 3:30, 3:39, 3:40, 3:41, 3:43, 3:45) edited in from mono mix.
     
  18. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    In several instances it sounds noticeably worse.
     
  19. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    I know. You did a great analysis of these trouble areas. I would guess it was very difficult doing what they did. So they made mistakes.

    But overall, which is the better sounding listening experience. A quality needledrop or the Sundazed?

    I ask, because the Sundazed album was practically universally praised on release. (not defending the deception).
     
  20. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I found the Sundazed to vary between "pretty similar to" and "significantly worse than" my friend's needledrop. I can't recall any areas where I found the Sundazed to sound better, other than perhaps the lack of surface noise at the start of Sure 'Nuff N' Yes I Do or something. And of course the needledrop has the mono mix, often in contrast to the Sundazed.

    If there's a specific spot somebody thinks I should revisit, I'm all ears, but at the moment, see above.
     
  21. sberger

    sberger Dream Baby Dream

    :tiphat:
    :righton:
     
  22. kanno1ae

    kanno1ae Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas, USA
    Yes, they obviously thought they could create a better sounding version by splicing both sources together, but you haven't said why. Many of us believe the reason was to hide vinyl artifacts, as stated above. In other words, it sounds better when you can't hear surface noise and turntable rumble. If what you're implying is that they thought the fold-down sounded better mix-wise during those passages, then no, your theory does not work for me, because 1) they claim to use "Perry's original mono mix," and 2) the sections that are spliced in occur only during the soft passages (and it simply doesn't make sense to say "I don't like the way the mix sounds during the soft passages, so let's insert a fold-down of the stereo"). Can you imagine the outrage there would be if the producers of The Beatles In Mono had said, "Here are all the original mono mixes of all the LPs!" but then they spliced in bits of the stereo versions folded-down because they thought it "sounded better" and didn't disclose this information?

    These two statements seem to contradict each other:
    Yes, indeed it was "a LOT more work to do what they did, than to buy 5 mono lp's and needledrop it." Regardless of how many copies of the LP they had, though, surface noise and turntable rumble would have been apparent on all of them during quiet passages, and so I'm guessing (again, without hearing the audio) a straight needledrop would not have been easier to get away with.
     
  23. Billy Hunt

    Billy Hunt Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cardiff, Wales.
    The problem is that it's not the "original negative", or even a copy given to distributors. The starting point is a vinyl dub, which in your analogy is more akin to someone filming a copy from the audience during a showing. To fill in damaged sections (in this case read "noisy") another print has been used, but black and white instead of colour. Nothing heroic here.

    As to any deception, English law has created the "reasonable man" in an attempt to avoid the weaselly interpretation of implied contracts. For our purposes this man expects albums from this era to be cut from tape, but wouldn't know or care whether the master or a safety copy was used. He is also known as "the man on the Clapham omnibus", but we can bring him from the 19th to the 21st century and allow he would know hi-rez digital copies of tapes are also used. And that's it really, in the absence of any other information. No bending over backwards to stretch the meaning of "restoration" in some anonymous advertising blurb to justify the use of a vinyl dub and stereo tape source.

    But for argument's sake let's say the man on the Clapham 'bus overheard a conversation of two guys from Southampton and learnt that the Safe as Milk mono tape was believed lost. Before buying he had better check the Sundazed website; no mention here of finding a tape or using a vinyl dub for that matter . How about Facebook? Ah, this is more like it; a photo of the tape box. Our man, being reasonable, expects there to be a tape in the box, or else why show it? It seems some other reasonable man is concerned and wants confirmation the tape isn't lost, but is reassured by Mr. Sundazed, who says rumours of lost tapes are greatly exaggerated. No lost tape then. And hold on, what's this, they actually say they've "unearthed the original mono master tapes" for the singles. The four tracks are on the album aren't they? Must be okay then. Don't know what those Sotonians were on about.
     
  24. Laservampire

    Laservampire Down with this sort of thing Thread Starter

    Cheers for the hard work @lukpac!
     
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  25. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Clink those beer glasses.
     
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