Carbon Fiber Brush - Microabrasions!

3 questions:

1. Does anyone have anything good to say about the new Discwasher?

2. Is it worth getting a used vintage Dishwasher (hard to know how much it's been used). Also, any of the older fluid cannot surely be useful these days (I would think).

3. Good idea to use new fluid with vintage brush, or not?

 

I've got four carbon fibre brushes. Three were labeled "Tonar". The oldest one works well, and has soft bristles. The two newer brushes have much harder bristles and I've seen them leave marks on records after use. The fourth just says "Carbon Fibre Brush" and while it looks like the other three, the bristles fall of if you use it.

Before I bought an RCM I used to use a "Nagaoka Rolling Cleaner" which appears similar to the other "lint brush" mentioned in this thread. It removed all surface dirt from records but left them pretty statically charged. Using my good carbon fibre brush after usually produced satisfactory results.

I've also got the "classic" Discwasher and while it's an alright brush, I don't think it's worth hunting down. It picks up dust but I've found the fluid can sometimes make a record noisier. I've seen the new Discwasher in person and it's nothing like the old. The brush material is similar to corduroy, not nearly as soft as the old version.

 

Thanks. That's a surprising reaction but useful.

 

On another important note,I also think the" pancake style" stylus brushes are potentionally damaging. I only use one like this Shure type
http://www.ebay.com/itm/261805195833?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1555.l2649 along with ocassional use of majic erasure or Moongel.

 

Everyone here that uses a vacuum RCM is also polishing the PVC from the brush and the dirt it captures and theres quite a bit of vacuum pulling the brush into the vinyl, put that in your pipe and smoke it!

 

1). No clue. Never used one.

2). I have a vintage one I use to get dust off of CLEAN records. Dry...without any fluid or water. I would never use the disc washer to "clean" records.

3). See #2.

FWIW, carbon fiber brushes are not only useless at the 2 things they claim to do (reduce static and remove dust) but they can also leave visible microscratches. Snake oil IMO.

 

Right. I should say get dust off. I actually have a cheap basic brush with some liquid from Audiotechnica which I use to get dust off new and old records. I don't even know if it's made of carbon fibres. I only use the fluid occasionally. For all my questions, I don't think they would be selling that brush and liquid these days if it damaged records. It's just that I have heard so many positive things about the old Discwasher.

 

What makes you think a company wouldn't sell someone a bill of goods "these days"? If for no reason other than incompetence, it happens all the time.

 

Agree

 

I have not experienced, well I have not seen these abrasions. I would think that the vinyl is tougher than that. After all we are dragging a rock across it every time we spin! These vinyl thingies are a tad tougher than some seem to think.

 

No "polishing" from dirt (I assume that is what you were attempting to convey) IF the user has the intelligence (and common sense) to recognize, and take the time required, to utilize and make best use of the machine's capabilities (best practices)

As for "quite a bit of vacuum pulling the brush into the vinyl"?

That is the whole point of it all

A tool is only as good as the hand that holds it

 

Carbon fiber record brushes are NOT for "cleaning", they are intended for light dusting (removal) of the incidental bits of airborne household debris that a record (a clean record) attracts normally through handling..............that's IT

DON'T PUT A DRY BRUSH OR PAD OF ANY KIND ON A DIRTY RECORD

The best and most effective carbon fiber brush ever made was the DEEMA "Carbotex" - antistatic carbon fibre - Made in W.Germany; if you come across one, GRAB IT!

Close to it but a little more finicky to get best results is the Hunt E.D.A - Made in England - still available today as you already know

AudioQuest put their name on the DEEMA brush for a while (and still do) but that was a long time ago; the brush they still sell today looks the same but I do not know who makes it or where it is from (and, I have not had the opportunity to hold one in my hand)

ePay and other on-line sellers are flooding the market (today) with cheap chinese knock offs of the original DEEMA/AudioQuest Brush; Pro-Ject sells a copy of this brush today as well (country of origin unknown):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-Carbon-...239?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c4dc11307

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=carbon fiber record brush&tbm=shop

I have never had any issues, problems or lost hairs from my German made example and I have had it in constant use since 1991
It leaves no marks, nor does it deposit anything onto the record's surface (which MAY be what some are seeing and interpreting as scratches; the fibers are ether leaving something ON the record surface or are making fine slices through it)

Either way, I would only use a brush on my records if I knew where it came from (see above)

Some have said they wash these brushes and some have said they use them wet; they are NOT intended for either; the only acceptable cleaning of a micro-fiber brush is a dry cleaning, using the frame provided, you wet it, you've ruined it

As for the current incarnation of the Dishwasher? AVOID, it is a piece of junk and will damage your records with hard corners, hard lumps of adhesive on some examples (under the fabric) and a material weave that is not appropriate for this task

The original Discwasher pad was covered with a material made in Belgium and is "OK" for damp, light "dusting" IF applied judiciously

The originals, first generation (pads) were black, then a dark golden brown color; later examples from the Recoton era are all over the map quality wise (like they were emptying the shelves of remaining inventory) If is is not clearly marked MADE IN U.S.A. & pad material made in Belgium I would avoid
The "RCA" branded versions being sold today are pure garbage

 

You have to be careful with that............that recommendation was made back in the 1990s when Audioquest was simply re-branding the DEEMA brush

Is their a country of origin indicated on yours or the packaging that it came in?

 

That's great...if that "rock" is finely cut into a shape that almost mirrors the "groove thingie" and then placed carefully into said "groove thingie".

If, however, that finely cut "rock" is dragged across a non-"groove-thingie" part of said vinyl -- similar to the motion of, say, a carbon fiber brush -- the abrasion can be quite visible to the naked eye and likely audible to even the less-than-golden ears among us...

Vinyl actually is not tough and is quite susceptible to scratching by countless objects...like a diamond stylus...or a carbon fiber brush.

 

no microscuffing with my brush- a cheapie vinyl styl. i tried scrubbing like crazy in the out grooves- many repetitions in all directions. nothing.

 

Depends on what it's made of
The term "carbon fiber" covers a lot of territory and is not very specific
The type (proper type) used in a well made Lp brush has an extremely low carbon or graphite content; it is essentially a plastic reinforced textile product with a given percentage of "carbon" filler for additional strength and other desired properties
That is all the more reason why you have to buy a brush from a reputable source
You are not dragging "carbon" across your records per se

As for vinyl records not being tough? Some more so than others, I'll give you that (back to the same chemistry lesson above, more than one formula or compound out there)..............but at the end of the day they are amazingly tough and durable and able to withstand enormous abuses and still play well
Well looked after they'll last (and still sound well) longer than any of us

 

If it's a new album, it should never need a carbon brushing. Get a RCM and a soft brush and put the albums new sleeves.

 

This sounds an awful lot like..."it's in NM condition for it's age". A record subjected to some abuses may "still play well" and "last longer than any of us", but it doesn't mean that they can't also be easily and irreparably damaged by an accidentally dropped stylus or scrape of a fingernail. Or that dragging plastic reinforced textile product over a vinyl record won't visibly, but unnecessarily, alter the appearance of the vinyl -- and potentially degrade performance.

I've tried several different "plastic reinforced textile products with a given percentage of carbon filler" brushes and I've seen zero upside to their use. They can be pretty good at moving dust and debris around the surface of a record (but aren't particularly effective at removing it), they are largely ineffective at reducing static, and I've seen them cause surface microabrasions.

 

Lost me there pal

Most Lp fans and serious collectors try to avoid those sorts of things

Sorry this has been your experience; I cannot say that I can share that one with you
I also notice that you fail to mention specifically just which brush it is you are having so much difficulty with
How many times did you ruin a record(s) before you realized the connection? (and hopefully stop the practice immediately, and or, get another brush)
As I went to great lengths to point out (with specific and actual examples) all of these brushes are not created equal
Same as with all things; good ones are hard to come by
Was this a protracted experience or a one shot deal?

You use them (they are intended for us on) on clean records to remove the incidental household debris that will often attach itself to the surface of an Lp from simply removing it from it's sleeve
"Carbon fiber" brushes are NOT intended for the use of cleaning dirty records
Properly aplied, the "carbon fiber" brush should just gently touch the record's surface; NO "dargging" of anyhing required (helpful instructions are included with the better German made brushes)
All record cleaning should be done WET (the cleaning of dirty records)
I think this has been pointed out now about a thousand times, a thousand ways and in about a thousand places (yet the mystery persists)
Cleaning Lps is exactly like cleaning a well lacquered BLACK car (that you care about)
Lastly, as with all tools, the job they do is only as good as the hands that hold them

 

Claiming that vinyl can be abused and still playable is like saying a VG record record is NM for it's age. It's subjective and not particularly relevant that it's still "playable" and it's subjective and not particularly relevant that someone believes the age of vinyl provides some subjective leeway in the grading of a record. My point was that, much like a record is either NM or isn't, vinyl is either tough enough to be impervious to light scuffs from objects (like a stylus or carbon fiber brush or fingernail) or it isn't.

You lost me here.

I didn't know I was required to name which brand. I only have one of them left, I think. It's the silver metalish one with the black plastic thing that flips over the brushes, IIRC. They're pretty common...Audioquest, maybe? I tried a few before I found my old discwasher and found it to be infinitely more effective and efficient than any of the carbon fiber things. I never said I "ruined" a record with them. But I found them all to be ineffective as I described and I recall microabrasions with at least one of them. It's been years since I used one and I don't see any reason to use one again.

Thanks for the lecture, but where did I say carbon fiber brushes are intended for cleaning dirty records? I'm fully aware of the difference between cleaning records and removing extraneous dust and small airborne debris from a clean record. And I'm fully aware that the (supposed) purpose of the carbon fiber brushes is the latter only.

Gently touch...dragging...whatever you want to call it. Carbon fiber brushes do a nice job of creating a line of dust when one "gently touches" the surface with it. It's the "getting the line of dust off the surface" part that it isn't good at and is probably where attempts to do so cause microabrasionsdue to have to "gently" sweep the line off the record in a motion perpendicular to the grooves (which gets back to the non-toughness of vinyl by objects outside of the groove area of a vinyl record).

Cleaning a well lacquered black car isn't a bad analogy...I can't imagine EVER even gently touching and sweeping the surface of a black car (yes, I have one) with any carbon fiber brush.

 

Clearly; I would suggest you re-read both my posts as well as yours
Notably the one in which I discussed, and include links to, all of the clones of the DEEMA brush (which is what AudioQuest used to re-label as their own, which has also been coverd here in this thread) currently flooding the market today; cashing in on the "vinyl revival"
I don't believe DEMA even exists any more............regardless, the fine points have been discussed, no need to repeat them, they're all here

Most of the things you are having trouble with (now) appear to be your own words (your "points" appear to be "evolving")

No desire to argue a point of fact that I know to be true; I have no problems with marks being left behind on my Lps, resulting from the use of my "carbon fiber" brush..........NONE that can be viewed with the naked eye, in any light, on any angle
I have not been concerned enough with this to try having a look at them under a microscope however, but do not intend to

Sorry you cannot find a proper brush that works

 

Let me summarize my "evolving" view of carbon fiber brushes:

1) The supposed use of Carbon fiber brushes is to remove dust and extraneous airborne particles from the surface of a CLEAN record. It should not be used to clean records.

2) The carbon fiber brushes I've used (which from pictures appear to be the Audioquest brush, the Hunt brush, and one other that I can't recall what it was) are capable of collecting most random dust on a record into a line of dust on a vinyl record. In my experience, there was often still a small amount of dust that was not collected by the brush.

3) The motions required to attempt 1 & 2 -- particularly #2 -- can with some brushes cause visible microabrasions on a vinyl record surface because vinyl records are particularly sensitive to objects moving across their surface. This is confirmed through experience. That this may or may not be audible and may or may not render a record playable is a non-sequitar.

4) It is also my belief from experience that carbon fiber brushes are inherently incapable of effectively removing the entire line of dust from the surface of a vinyl record and there is no technique by which they can do so.

5) While I suspect most, if not all, carbon fiber brushes can cause microabrasions to the surface of a vinyl record, I have not tried every available brush to test this belief. Nevertheless, it not a particularly strong argument in favor of the use of carbon fiber brushes that some brushes may not cause visible microabrasions on the surface.

6) Carbon Fiber brushes are minimally effective at reducing static charges from a vinyl record.


In summary, I see no reason to continue spending time and resources on a tool which I believe -- through knowledge and finite, but not minimal, experience and use -- is inherently incapable of effectively doing much of what it claims and for which I have tools which are more effective and efficient in doing the same tasks. It is a shame that the only tools being made and marketed for doing these tasks are only marginally effective, at best.

 

Maybe I'll do a "how to do it" video and post it to YouTube; "how to use a "carbon fiber" record brush"

 

Please do. There are some there already, and of course, they all do it differently!

 

I use the Deram and a very light touch. No abrasions.