Carl Palmer "Black Sabbath wanted me to replace Bill Ward"

so you want me to re-record the drums on 13 for your benefit or are you really just this shameless

 

Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my opinion on the matter, an opinion most people write off as angry fanboy conjecture at this point.

I don't think we're going to get the real truth on this matter, but any woman who would sue Tony Iommi over ownership of the name Black Sabbath is clearly suspect of putting her agenda before that of the fans or the legacy of the band. Using Bill for promo shots and then yanking him out of the lineup was a bait and switch. Even if he was difficult in the studio, why replace him with some nobody? If they'd hired someone like Carl Palmer, at least they'd have been showing an intent to deliver on the legacy. Instead they brought in someone who was obviously cheap to hire, so that leads a lot of people to the logical conclusion that it was about money. It clearly wasn't about the legacy.

Again, I respect your very civil response, and as a fellow Sabbath fan, I really wish I could have enjoyed this half-a$$ed reunion attempt, but I can't buy the BS.

 

Uh...no one said anything about you making it a comedy record. Just post some of your recorded works. That shouldn't be too difficult, should it?

Just a sample of you not phoning it in, so we can compare your talent to that of Brad Wilk.

 

I'll get right on that for you. In the meantime, post some footage of yourself outgunning Andrew Luck.

 

Glad to hear it wasn't the weak Carl Palmer who said this.

 

Why didn't they just get Bev Bevan?

 

Reading this just reminds me how disappointing it was the Ward was not involved (for whatever reason).

 

I don't think money had a thing to do with who they brought in as a drummer. Rick Rubin wanted a certain sound and I suspect it was all about "feel." It had to have a bit of swing to it. Apparently they were planning on working with another drummer (not sure who) and Wilk was brought in late in the game. When Rubin heard the feel he brought to the material they were working on, he flipped out and thought it was perfect. I believe they had tried many drummers and some big names. Not sure what some folks are hearing, but I think Wilk's feel is brilliant and Rubin got this one right. And I think it could be said that they were confident enough in the sound they were going for that they didn't to need play the swap out one big name for another game. In the end it was about the music. Wilk is clearly an excellent musician. Capable of slotting in, never overplaying, and finding the right feel on the material. Personally, I cannot conceive of what anyone who would criticize his drumming on the album might be hearing. I wish Bill were there, but I have to call it like I hear it. The guy did a fantastic job, IMO.

I highly recommend the link I provided if the recording details interest you. Mike Exeter provides some really fascinating insights on how the whole project came together. The discussion of 13 starts maybe 10 minutes or so into the interview.

As far as "Sharon" and the lawsuit, again I'm not so sure. My understanding was that the lawsuit involved merchandising. In other words, for example: They felt it wasn't really right for Black Sabbath shirts depicting the most famous, original lineup to be sold without Osbourne getting a share. I believe the argument was that Ozzy signed away his rights to the name quickly and that shouldn't hold up all these years later, given the changing landscape of merchandising and the fact that the Black Sabbath brand is basically an empire at this point. And as far as the original lineup, Ozzy's success has surely contributed to the product that is moved. It was never about royalties, afaik. It was about merchandising. If, in the end, there were further agreements made about the name, I am uncertain. I do think Tony and Ozzy are probably as close now as they have ever been.

In the end, as far as Black Sabbath is concerned, whatever role Sharon Osbourne has played, I think she should probably be credited, not criticized. The band are everywhere. I can't think of a single band from their 70's generation of rockers that is any bigger. I realize that's mostly about how well their music has aged, but they've also had some brilliant minds market them. At this point, they are packing arenas and stadiums worldwide when many of their peers are lucky to play clubs or County Fairs. They have had almost unanimous critical acclaim for their album and tour. They are winning awards. Some might argue that this was never a band who cared about this type of thing, but I believe part of a manager's job is to get whatever acclaim he or she can. I suspect they have several managers these days, but as I say, whatever role Sharon is playing, I cannot see how she could be considered to be doing anything besides pushing what musical geniuses these guys are their marketing is probably about as good as any act today.

 

I don't think money had anything to do with it either really....other than provide Bill an excuse to save a bit of pride.

Look, these guys have known each other forever. I think Bill showed up "not ready to play", and the others let him have it. Especially Ozzy. Bill left on a huff and came up with his contract story. After some time passed, they simply decided they couldn't wait for Bill. That's it.

 

I agree. And what I was also saying is that the idea they brought in Brad Wilk to save what it would have cost to bring in a big name like Carl Palmer is simply not a theory which I think has a shred of evidence.

 

I agree completely. A theory like that makes absolutely no sense. It's not like they were on a strict budget. The album was gonna be a monster, and everyone knew it. It was all about the music and the comfort level with the band. Period.

 

Born Again is one of my favorite Sabbath albums and Tour. I loved seeing Bev Bevan on drums with them.

 

I told you guys in that thread that it was a legitimate genre, used by people in the industry. Nobody wanted to accept that.

 

... used by one person in the industry.

 

Wrong.

 

You can't count me among those who argued against it. My only sense of doubt was where the term originated. An early 80's Rolling Stone article pointed fingers directly at Styx, Journey and Foreigner. Now, if industry insiders were using the term prior, it'd be interesting to know who was the first.

 

Right As Rain

 

The facts will never surface, so my conjecture is as valid as anyone's. The whole thing was about the money, and anyone with a third eye could see it. It wasn't a celebration of the genius of Black Sabbath, it was a business venture.
But in the end, Geezer and Tony made a lot of money, and that's the only good that came out of the whole affair.

 

He does not even need to do that. Just some technical comments as to what Brad did wrong and he would do right would suffice. Technical...as like in what I did on the Sabbath thread with the song breakdowns I did. He can do something similar with percussion if he is the real deal.

BTW- I am not a drummer but it sounds to me like Carl Palmer could probably play just about any genre of music and would have kicked **** in Sabbath. Why the heck else would The Master have approached him? Duh.

 

Like I said in that infamous, endless thread, the program director of the first classic rock radio station in Detroit explained that term on the air when the station started in the 1980s, in response to listeners calling in, requesting to hear Styx, Journey, Foreigner, Boston, etc. I heard it with my own ears. When classic rock radio began, they did not play corporate rock artists.

 

Another bad mother on drums.

 

I first thought that when I heard the original Do Ya.

 

I believe

You forgot that an overwhelming majority feel that we got an absolutely incredible album out of it. Easily the best album of last year, IMO. An opinion that seems to be shared by it placing first in some recent, annual polls.

Not sure where opinions are involved that "facts" could surface anyway. But there is quite a bit of info out there. Tony nor Geezer have said much about it at all. Tony just seems to have been very disappointed but felt they had to move on and "couldn't wait any longer" for Bill. Ozzy seems to suggest that Bill was not giving them any confidence that he was going to be able to pull this off. They all seem to feel the door is open so there is certainly hope it can worked out at some point in the future.

I'm just not sure people who still feel it was about "money" have been following the story. I believe that theory has pretty much been dismissed even by the most angry Bill Ward fans. At least by people who have been following the info that has come to light. And even some of the comments Bill has made suggest money was not the main issue at all. I've submitted my theories, which I feel are at least somewhat probable and a bit better than pure conjecture. But if you insist on being upset and dismissing the great music Sabbath contributed with 13 as a result of trying to read between the lines of their personal issues, I think it's your musical loss. That's just me.

 

Wow, I am really impressed with the progress you've made. Keep at it and you just might make sense some day.

Now, off you go back into Nevernever Land with the rest of the ignored.

 

just so you know, I'm *this* close to reporting you for the nonsense you've spewed in here, most of which has, frankly, creeped me out