Case Study - Where to improve Vinyl playback system

Hi guys, After a few years of child preparation and no time or house space for vinyl, I'm trying to make a comeback. I love vinyl more for nostalgia than anything else but who doesn't want better sound? My dad used to love to play Sam Cooke and Buddy Holly records for me back when I was a kid in the late 80s(still have them!). It was an old Fisher automatic arm return turntable/dual cassette deck. I got rid of it 5-6 years ago because I assumed it would ruin the records since we never changed the needle on it and I couldn't find out what was compatible. 5 years ago, I put together my rig which consists of:

Turntable - Pro-ject Debut III in lime green (no upgrades except I did buy the Speed Box II)

Cartridge - Stock Ortofon OM 5E with 200-300 hours on it (Turntable was in storage for at least 2 years so it hasn't been used extensively)

Speakers - Definitive Pro Monitor 800 bookshelf speakers that are set on homemade wooden speaker stands with plain old speaker wire. Unfortunately I had a mishap where a speaker fell off the stand and smashed in one of the back connections. It still works, I just need to bop the side of it once in a while.

Receiver - Yamaha RX 395 with a built in phono stage.

Cleaning system - Spin Clean MK II which seems to work great. That plus using poly sleeves seem to eliminate all the static I used to have. Even the felt mat doesn't stick to my records any more!

Budget: Not really sure but certainly under $1,000 this year. Kind of have to sneak these by the wife.

Room environment: The system had to be relegated to the basement so I'm dealing with tile over concrete floor and drop ceilings that are about 6.5 ft high. I'm about 6 feet from the speakers and they are 10-12 feet apart. The room itself is pretty open so while the room length is 6 ft, it is very wide and open (40-50ft as a guess - sorry there are no pictures)

My ears: They're pretty good but I am no audiophile(but would like to be). My head spins when I hear about warmth, sound-staging, separation, etc. I get the concepts but have never heard a real good system so I'm not sure what I am even missing out on or if any upgrades are worth it. I am happy with my system as is but I'd like to make some improvements because I can be a tinkering obsessive.

Music I listen to(in case it matters): Primarily Beatles, Stones, Springsteen, Elvis, but a smattering of other classic rock and pop music. Not into classical or jazz at the moment.

My ideas/questions (Can't do them all but these seem like a decent start):
1) Upgrade cartridge - Assuming I keep the Pro-ject Debut III, what makes sense here for maybe $50-$200? There exist $10K cartridges out there but even if I were rich, it seems ridiculous on a $400 turntable.

2) Speakers - Would floor standing ones be better that the bookshelves I have? What would make sense here (say $500 for a pair) or would there not be a noticeable improvement over what I have?

3) Receiver/phono stage - Is this phono stage fine or should I look for a free standing one?

4) Do I really need a record clamp? Most of my records are from the used bins so some warping exists but nothing ridiculous by my eyes.

5) Do I need the acrylic platter? I'm doing okay with static at the moment although seeing pictures of people LED modding them to glow makes me drool

6) Am I missing anything that I should be asking about?

Thank you all

 

Do your records a favor and get rid of the crap ortofon cartridge--a nice tracking Audio-technica 440 MLA will play through most records without mistracking which destroys the grooves.

Record clamp will better bond the record to the platter to draw off resonances, and the acrylic platter helps there too, due to it being an inert material. But given what you have, upgrading speakers would be a logical next move (but a little harder to sneak past the spousal unit). Strangely enough (for a mass market company), Pioneer has some fine sounding speakers in the Andrew Jones designed units they sell and the price is affordable. Here are the floorstanding speakers:

http://www.amazon.com/Pioneer-SP-FS52-LR-Designed-standing-Loudspeaker/dp/B008NCD2S4

No issues with Yamaha--they have made nice equipment for decades and you won't hear much phono stage improvement by getting one outboard, not until you move up in electronics anyway. Enjoy what you have and upgrade a small jump at a time, as I have done for 30+ years in this crazy hobby of ours.

 

Ortofon is fine - just upgrade the stylus to an OM30.

 

I'm gonna say speakers and spend a couple hundred on room treatments/bass traps. I've heard worse cartridges than the OM5. Look for small floor standers or big stand mounted bookshelf speakers.

 

Agree with costerdock on this one...easy and cheap to be honest. I think this is the proper link to those Pioneers http://www.pioneerelectronics.com/PUSA/Home/Speakers/Pioneer+Speakers/SP-FS52

I don't think they will mate very well with your receiver though.....I have a pair of the smaller book shelf speakers and they really are power hungry little guys @ 87dB......I think you would do better with something more efficient.

Regarding room treatments....quite a bit of sound improvement can be had with curtains and a rug or two. Think to diffuse reflection points when placing them....the floor in front of the speakers between you and them and especially the wall behind your listening position. Not sure where in Mass you are, but used with speakers is great bang for your buck. Craig's list might be your friend.

 

Seems like in order or priority:

1) Speakers - I had been thinking of floor standers so I'll have to look at some of the better budget or lower end mid range stuff. That Andrew Jones line seems very reasonably priced, about the same as KLH speakers I bought for my TV 10 years ago. Those KLH sound fine for watching a movie or sports but I don't know if they are great for music. Plus with floor standers, I won't knock one off my #$@&ing shelf. I'll search the forum for other ideas as well. Also, I didn't think of how they work with different receivers. I didn't have much of a plan when starting this rig and thankfully I was gifted the receiver and speakers from someone who upgraded.

2) Cartridge/Stylus - It seems like the Audio Technica is $200 on Amazon while the OM30 stylus is $225 at turntableneedles.com If they are pretty equal, it seems like it would make sense to just get the whole cartridge(they do come with the stylus right?)

3) Clamps and Platters - Seems like this would be good but not as important to pour money into

?) Regarding bass traps and room treatments, what would this entail? It's a partially finished basement with wood paneling and the aforementioned tile over concrete floors. If room treatments are not possible in my situation, would any of the other upgrades even be worth it?

EDIT: Noticed adam's repsonse but forgot to edit my message. I might be able to make curtains work somehow. The rug could happen eventually but I know we occasionally get water near our washer after heavy rainfall or melting snow (nowhere near the rig) but my wife is concerned with having a rug anywhere in the area.

Like ARCCJ said, upgrading slowly one link at a time is how I want to do it. I want to hear the difference gradually and it's not a race.

Adamdube - I'm in Southern Mass on the Rhode Island border. Oh I see you're from Ohio so these places are just a tiny speck to you I'll have to check out "used with speakers" to see where they are.

 

It sounds as if your floor is hard and shiny. Adding a nice thick rug between the speakers and your listening chair would tame reflections nicely.

I would also recommend a wine rack as a nice bottle of red improves the sound no end

 

I had the OM30 and then bought a 440mla off amazon for a second turntable that I had (back when they were 99.99 and the OM 30 as still 200+) and the AT was a disappointment - one channel suffered serious noise. I returned the AT back to Amazon for a replacement and the replacement was much better but still picked up some noise/imperfections whereas the OM30 was very nice and quiet. Having one OM30 and two 440mla - hands down - I'll take the OM30 any day. I still enjoy the 440 - it sits in 4th place of the carts that I have.

Thanks,

Chris

 

for 1k I would get a cartridge. As soon as you had the next 1k then speakers.

 

Are these dimensions correct? 6 feet X 50 feet? How can you even be sitting 6 feet from the speakers in a room that's only 6 feet wide. I suspect something's not correct in what you've written here.

Either way in a basement with tile over concrete flooring and a long but narrow room with presumably lots of parallel wall area, I suspect that treating the room for flutter echo and phase cancellation from back-to-front reflections from behind the listening position and behind the speakers with some broad band absorption, maybe some diffraction given the width, and bass trapping, and maybe some kind of unsealed oriental style rug maybe over a jute or felt mat over some part of the tile floor between the speakers and the listening position will give you more sonic improvement than anything else.

 

What you have is nice stuff.
Ortofon cartridges at all price points are well made cartridges and are just fine.
It's like everything else, or course they offer other models on which you can spend more money.
Nothing they offer is "bad".
The only reason to change is if you hear something you like better, not something that you read sounds better. And can afford of course!
You have a perfectly fine set up to enjoy your music on vinyl.
Do yourself a favor and don't fall into the over analysis insecurity upgrade neurosis trap.
No matter what you have somebody will tell you why it's wrong or not good enough.
Even when they've never heard your system.
Enjoy your records!
Charles

 

I agree with this logic. Where you pick it up and where you let it out are the most important, IMHO.

 

I went downstairs after work today and while I didn't measure, the 40-50 ft side to side is about right. It's 90% of my house length. I'm probably more like 8 ft from the wall in front of me(My couch is against the back wall) so that would make the speakers 9 or 10 ft from me. I'm glad to hear I have some good stuff as it is. I will start saving up for upgrades but while listening to some Bruce, I have the hankering to buy the 73-84 box set. My original albhums were well loved even before I got my hands on them.

 

First, start with the box set. Yeah, do that. Sounds like it might be time to upgrade yout stylus. I am using a Project Phono pre on my second system and it is nice for the price. As for speakers, amp, etc., if you don't have a problem with your current stuff, upgrade when you feel like it.

 

i still can't picture this room as you describe it. If you are 8 ft from the wall in front of you, how can the speakers be 9-10 feet away? are they outside? maybe you should draw it up for us, or more clearly explain, like "the room is 40 x 8. My couch is positioned at x position on the short wall, the speakers are 10 feet away, 30 feet from the back wall" or etc.

 

Well the speakers are further from me than the wall because it is a diagonal. Think the hypotenuse of a triangle. I will measure it though in a bit and repost. I'm off on a work conference until Friday so I need to get in one album before I leave.

OK mystery of room size is over. Remember this is a wide open basement, not a room per se. Think a super widescreen TV if you had a birds-eye view.

Side to side 30 ft
Front to back - My couch on the back wall to the speakers/front wall are about 9.5 ft away
The speakers are about 8 ft apart from each other.
The drop ceiling is 6.5 ft high

 

For $1k, I'd say cartridge and phono stage. I had an AT150MLX I picked up used on my Project Xpression iii and it sounded awesome. Ortfon 2m Blue or Denon DL-110 also worked and sounded good on my Project table. Jolida Jd9 phono preamp (also bought used) was a big step up from the built in stage on my old Rega Brio 3.

BTW - I've got a Yamaha RX 385 sitting behind me doing amp duties here at the office. I've had it for 25 years now. Great little integrated amp.

 

Having gone through a very similar situation let me give you some advice - don't create problems that do not exist.

How does your current system sound to you? If the answer is that it makes your head spin then what is the purpose of upgrading (at least right now)?

If you ask these guys how to spend your money they will gladly tell you but I ask you do you really need to (at least right now)?

I did the same thing, I have this and that, now what else do I need? It took me a while to figure out but I came to the conclusion that what I NEED to do is sit my tinkering rear end down and spend some time just listening to and enjoying some music instead of obsessing over what else I need to add to my system. If I were you I would sit down and listen for days, weeks, months then come back here and tell these fine folks what you like about your setup and what you don't like, at that point they will better be able to point you in the right direction. Just friendly advice from another non-audiophile with dreams of becoming one (and who has the change for changes sake disease).

 

Some folks above have recommended the Pioneer/Andrew Jones speakers. They are very good for the price and I have them myself but...

Andrew Jones has moved to ELAC and his new speaker line will release in a few days. Advance word on these has been very positive. They are more $ than the Pioneers but are very affordable still. B5 Bookshelf are $229 a pair.

http://elac.us/debutproducts/

 

So step one is complete. On the way to my conference, I stopped by Newbury Comics and asked about the Springsteen vinyl box. Amazon has it for about $160 so I figure that or less and it's mine. Sure enough, there's a pink sale sticker on it for $119.99! Unfortunately I have to wait until at least Friday to get it home and into the Spin Clean. Hopefully there won't be any issues.

 

Spend the dough on room treatment; rug, drapes, etc. The hard surfaces are holding back the good sound.

 

Can't get good sound with hard room surfaces.

The phono stage is all-important in a vinyl setup. It has to be a good match for your cartridge sound-wise. With auditioning phono stages being about impossible, you need to search the internet for articles/posts where someone has mentioned that a certain phono-stage sounds good with your cartridge. Even then it might turn out that you hear things differently.

Good luck. Everyone's got different opinions on which way you should go on this.

 

Upgrade your OM stylus to a Stylus 20, set tracking force as needed. Cost effective, minimal setup, and an improvement. Less than $200.

 

Really, all of the above suggestions will help. The thing is how much? You won't really know until you get your front end with better resolution. Put your resources into the beginning of where the rubber meets the road, or in this case the rock meets the vinyl. Get a good cart! Then, nice phono cables.

 

I second that motion. It is a competent cart.