CDs, Static, Milty Zaperator, Walker Talisman, Anti Static Spray

Do CDs collect static, does it affect the sound, and can anything be done about it? These are the subjects of this thread.

The theory is that CDs collect static from friction with air as they spin round in the player at speeds of 200-500rpm. Static charges attract dust. Dust interferes with the laser readings causing more use of error correction and therefore less accurate reproduction of the music.

What Is Static Electricity?

‘Static electricity is an imbalance of electric charges within or on the surface of a material. The charge remains until it is able to move away by means of an electric current or electrical discharge. Static electricity is named in contrast with current electricity, which flows through wires or other conductors and transmits energy.

A static electric charge is created whenever two surfaces contact and separate, and at least one of the surfaces has a high resistance to electric current (and is therefore an electrical insulator). The effects of static electricity are familiar to most people because people can feel, hear, and even see the spark as the excess charge is neutralized when brought close to a large electrical conductor (for example, a path to ground), or a region with an excess charge of the opposite polarity (positive or negative). The familiar phenomenon of a static shock–more specifically, an electrostatic discharge–is caused by the neutralization of charge.


Static electricity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia »

Do CDs collect static?

CDs are made mostly of polycarbonate, a form of plastic. This is an electrically non conductive material which means that if they receive an electric charge it won’t be conducted away.

I did a little test. I made an electroscope like this:



It works like this:

Inductive Charging using an Electroscope »

I found that if I rubbed vinyl vigorously with a cotton handkerchief the leaves would spread apart but when I did the same with a CD nothing happened. Only when I rubbed the CD with a plastic bag did the leaves spread.

However, if I took the lid off the jar and then hold the CD charged by rubbing with the handkerchief close to an aluminium leaf, the leaf moves towards the CD. The leaf does not do that when there is no charge on the CD, nor does it move towards a magnet.

Now we can’t make too much of this except it seems that vinyl is more susceptible to static then CDs. Of course I would think the charges I made on the CD were much higher then any one might expect in normal use.

Milty Zaperator and Walker Talisman

The Milty works like this:

Milty ZeroStat »

The Talisman seems to be effectively a big magnet (it sticks to my fridge!) and is used like this:

Walker Talisman Demonstration from Sound Mind Audio »

After making a detectable charge on the CD the charge did indeed disappear (according to my electroscope) when I used the Zaperator (it was effective on vinyl too).

When I tried to discharge the CD by using the Talisman as instructed, it reduced the charge but did not eliminate it (on vinyl the Talisman seemed to be more effective then with CD but you have to work harder to do the job).

Compared to the Talisman the Milty works better and is much easier to use. I should add that the Talisman also claims to demagnetize as well but I can’t offer comments on that.

Anti-Static Sprays

Anti-static spray coatings typically consist of a conducting polymer (plastic) and a solvent made from de-ionized water and alcohol. When the solvent evaporates, it leaves behind an invisibly thin conducting "skin" on the surface of the object that prevents static build-up.

For this experiment I removed any charge with the Milty then sprayed the CD on the label side only (as instructed) with Anti Static spray (Russ Andrews Relees), wiped it with the cloth provided and left it for a while. I then rubbed the playing side with plastic to get a charge and tested with the electroscope - there was a charge. I did the same thing with an identical disc with no anti-static spray on it. The CDs were stored in separate jewel cases. I then checked the charge on the electroscope every so often. It took 24 hours for the charge to almost, but not quite, discharge from the sprayed CD whereas the unsprayed CD had lost a little charge but it still indicated that a big charge remained when tested on the electroscope.

A question. As static electricity is said to be static how does the antic static spray on the label side reduce the static generated on the playing side?

Anti-static spray therefore does not prevent static developing but does help dissipate it over time.

 

CD, Static, Dust, Sound

For these experiments I didn’t use my main gear as I didn’t want to risk damaging it. I therefore used some older equipment that was easy to set up - Marantz CD6003 CD player, Audiolab 8000A amp and HD650 headphones.

Firstly I played a CD for 60 minutes to see if it picked up any static. I checked for static before playing by seeing if the leaf of the electrosope would move towards it and it didn’t. After 60 minutes of play no charge was measurable. Obviously if there is a charge created it needs a more refined measuring method.

Next I took the CD, added static to the label side by rubbing with a plastic bag, and played it (obviously if I rubbed the playing side with something it could be damaged. Adding static to the label side will not affect static on the playing side - static electricity is static!). I could hear no change in the sound.

I then added dust to the CD by lightly rubbing on carpet under the sofa. Dust sticks to it whether there is a charge or not. Dust particles are apparently charged themselves:

Why Do Ceiling Fans Get Dusty? »

Perhaps there is more going in then meets the eye. The amount of dust on the disc was more then one would get from normal use - this was abuse!

Firstly I wanted to see if spinning the disc in a CD player removes the dust - it doesn’t.

Then I played it. I couldn’t hear any difference between with and without dust. It may be the system I used is not resolving enough, or there isn’t any difference.

That’s it! I’m not prepared to try the dust experiment in my main CD player in my speaker system. What I will say is that in past experiments I did notice a small improvement in sound from using the Milty before playing (using the Milty on the Marantz set up made no difference). I noticed nothing with the Talisman.

Going deeper into this is beyond my capabilities and it may require proper laboratory equipment.

The reason I've done this is to refine my CD cleaning and preparation regime. My cleaning regime is: wipe with Russ Andrews Reveel (I was given loads of these and find each one is good for at least 10 CDs); wash under tap; place in ultrasonic (jewellery type) cleaner and run it for 90 seconds; dry with pure white kitchen towels; spray anti-static on label side; spray Shine-ola polish on playing side. I've only started doing this so I don't know how frequently I will do it for each CD. Just before playing I use the Milty on the disc. Most of this comes from here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V98KUteailc

I don't care if some laugh at this - bits is bits etc.. but it works for me. I find a small improvement in detail and more that makes it worth doing. This is after room treatment, positioning of speakers and chair, EQ, power supply improvements and anti-vibration measures.

I'm off to enjoy listening to music!

 

A couple more interesting links:

I read a theory that this 'demagnetising' is in fact just an anti-static effect:

Magnetization & Demagnetization any conclusions? | Audiogon Discussion Forum »

Go down about a quarter page to 01.05.08: Stringreen, the 'Dear Stanley' letter.

Interestingly what Mapleshade say fits with what I found in my simple experiments.

This is also quite interesting:

5. Conditions That Affect CDs and DVDs — Council on Library and Information Resources »

Section 5.2.4. talks about dirt.

Section 5.1.5. says 'Magnetism should have no affect on CDs or DVDs'

 

My God that was quite a read and I'm not sure I followed everything but great effort, even if it's wasted on me.

Firstly I'd say your carpet it giving a high static charge,I suspect your one side theory may be wrong and I wonder why only one side would become static in my CDP

I was given some liquid (can't remember the brand), that was said to release mould release agent MRA and remove static. As it seemed to work and I couldn't accept the MRA theory. I suspected removal of static was the cause, I found out that applying it to just the label side was just as effective.

My hypothesis was that any static may be having an effect on the electronic components in my CDP. Next I burnt identical CD-R's with either both sides treated or only one, no difference, go figure

 

I appreciate a computer or streamer based playback set-up is not practical for all listeners, but it certainly helps to do away with a lot of these potential "improvements". Once you have an accurate rip you can be fairly confident that the music will sound the same every time.

That said, I buy a lot of used discs and I too use an ultra sonic cleaner. Not for any sound improvement of course (although, I suppose it could help with getting accurate rips), it just seems the most thorough way to clean used discs without spending too much money.

 

If you believe that you've not been here long enough, it a whole new landscape for quantum mechanics to help us reveal the truth.

 

No. It isn't.

 

Been where long enough?

 

The land of alternative science

 

I've decided that when time permits I'm going to test this idea again, as cheaply as possible. It was 8 years ago when I did the test and whilst my system is the same it's ability to be "revealing (????)" is much improved.

I suspect back then I would have tried it on some difficult recordings. As I now find some of those opinions unfounded, I'm wondering if the taming of digital harshness was in fact a veiling of detail.

The plan burn two discs using Taiyo Yugden CD-Rs, to one I'll apply an anti static solution made from laundry softener and water, label side only.

I'll then test them in a robust as way as I possible. Whilst I accept this won't even satisfy me it's a start and something anybody can try for themselves then feedback their experience.

One thing I'm currently considering should I have a full album or a mix tape of different types of music.

Any other suggestions that you may have can be thrown into this unscientific investigation.

 

You don't need to listen to them. Just rip them both and analyse the difference objectively.

 

CDs are a digital storage medium. The data is stored on pits and grooves pressed into a metal-coated plastic substrate that deflects laser light. Lasers really don't care about static electricity all that much.

CDs have a built-in error correction mechanism in the data frames, not one, but two Reed-Solomon codes, that use an extra 20% of data on the disk, allowing complete correction of up to 4000 bits (about 2.5mm of missing track data).

If you want to see if there is any change at all, you could use an "obviously much poorer in quality" $15 computer CD+-RW drive and software to check the actual disc to see the error correction data rate. While this might let you know how "easily" the data is coming off the disc, it will also confirm that not a single audible change is made or uncorrectable error exists, even when you put a scratch with an exacto knife across the whole disc from the center.



That might give a much better analysis of your static electricity experimentation than observations like "as expected, there was a better grip on the bass, with undertones of blackcurrant and marjoram."

 

"analyze the difference objectively"?
Please explain what you mean by analyze the difference objectively. How would you do that? What process would you use?

 

Well that would save some time but doesn't address the question, is this a thumbs down to my investigation?

 

You can compare a spectrum analysis of the two rips (i.e. one ripped from the non-treated CD vs the treated CD). You could use Audio DiffMaker to see if there is any difference between the two files, and you could use a CRC Check to compare the rips vs the source file.

 

You're making an assumption that static isn't having a detrimental impact on the electronics inside your player, rather than the data being read.

 

The fact that you are willing to take the time to experiment and see/hear for yourself if there is a difference speaks volumes. You might even enjoy and have some fun doing the test/experiments.

I have preformed the same type of experiments/testing of CDs not in regards to static electricity charge on a CD but rather on proving a CD can be magnetized or not.
I am from the camp yes they can.

I was first introduced to the subject back in the late 1990s early 2000s. I was offered, by a dealer, to demo a Bedini Ultra Clarifier. The dealer wanted me try the thing out and let him know what I thought. He did not try to influence my thinking on the thing what so ever. Of course I knew the thing would be a waste of time, everybody knew a CD could not be magnetized. It did not have any ferrous properties/materials in the disc.

Beings the dealer was a friend of mine he sold me the Clarifier at his cost. Back then, damned if I knew why or how the thing worked my ears told it did and that's all that mattered to me.

A while back here on SH a thread was started on whether a CD could be magnetized and if it could how could it possible impact the sound of the CD.

There have been many such threads over the years on all audio forums and in the end the believers line up on one side the non believers on the other.

I have actually did what you are proposing doing with two Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs. Then to prove IF the experiment might be flawed because the two Taiyo Yuden CD-Rs were not identical I first recorded a few tracks off a CD that I knew was magnetized on the CD-r. I then gave the CD a spin in the Bedini Ultra Clarifier, both sides, and then recorded the same tracks/songs on the CD-r. I then Finalized the CD-r. The results were no different than with the two CD-r discs. Again I could clearly hear the differences between the untreated copied CD tracks/songs and the treated tracks/song of the single finalized CD-r CD.

Listening tests were preformed on several different 2 channel audio systems. Not once did any of the listeners not hear the differences.

FYI, you can re-magnetize a demagnetized CD by running it over a strong permanent magnet, both sides of the CD.

 

Well I can announce that treated and untreated disc show the same CRCs, I'll be burning them and conducting my listening tests in the next two weeks.

 

But will that really tell you how a CD will sound?

.

Here is a quote from an interview with John Curl.

Quote:

"I was working with Noel Lee and a company
called Symmetry. We designed this crossover and I specified these one
microfarad Mylar caps. Noel kept saying he could ’hear the caps’ and I
thought he was crazy. Its performance was better than aluminum or
tantalum electrolytics, and I couldn’t measure anything wrong with my
Sound Technology distortion analyzer. So what was I to complain about?
Finally I stopped measuring and started listening, and I realized that
the capacitor did have a fundamental flaw. This is were the ear has it all
over test equipment. The test equipment is almost always brought on line
to actually measure problems the ear hears. So we’re always working in
reverse. If we do hear something and we can’t measure it then we try to
find ways to measure what we hear. In the end we invariably find a
measurement that matches what the ear hears and it becomes very
obvious to everybody."

http://www.parasound.com/pdfs/JCinterview.pdf

 

Of course it will. We use this method all the time on this forum to compare masterings and confirm identical pressings. It's exactly the same thing.

 

Static charge. Magnetism. It's a wonder CDs don't get cancer.

 

I'm struggling to understand why some people take an interest in some hardware threads if they don't expect to find some useful information. I aim to give some info on things that I believe can be helpful to others who share my passion, it may be worth a bag of sh#t but it's well intended

 

How did you know it was magnetized?

(this is a genuine question please)

 

I think there may be a flaw in your study, I'm presuming recording means using your computer drive with an extraction programme. which probably read the discs differently than your CDP.

 

No.

I used a stand alone Sony W222ES dual tray CD recorder. Just install the original CD in the CD play only drawer and the CD-R music disc in the record/burn drawer.


I also have a Pioneer PDR609 CD recorder (haven't used in years) that requires a separate CD transport to be used for transfer of the digital signal of the CD to be copied to the PDR609. Back when I used it I used the coax digital output of an ARCAM Alpha 9 CDP.

You just can't get any simpler than that. No hard drive involved. No computer programs. Just copy/burn, the digital info from the original CD to a CD-R music/audio disc.