Chicago "Call On Me" Mastering Comparison

No, the horn crescendos I mentioned are visibly less dynamic.

Clearer reproduction doesn’t make things more compressed.

 

Hard to be sure from the zoomed out view of two waveforms from different bit-depth and sample-rate sources but like I say, the BD looks like it has a higher dynamic range.

 

Again, it doesn't. It's pretty easy to see that not only are the crescendos pushed down on the BD, compression is pushing down the signal after attacks, mostly from the drums. 0:28 is a good example.

 

So, the 'spikier' waveform is the more compressed one? That seems unlikely to me.

 

When the spikes are because the kick drum is boosted through EQ, yes.

 

The only way I can see what you mean is if the compressor is gated and allows the kick through but then clamps down until the next kick and so on but I'm not hearing it.

I am hearing Peter's syncopated bass part locking with Danny's drums very sweetly, however

 

The Gastwirt was a bit dull sounding while the Wilder sounded fuller. Never heard the Donnley before but I'm always concerned when I see his name in the mastering credits. I don't have the Quad version--thought about it but I have these albums in so many variations that I had a hard time paying extra for it.

 

Not sure what you mean by "if the compressor is gated", and the release is much faster than that, but otherwise, yes, that's exactly what's going on.

Also quite noticeable around 0:22-0:23, with the horn hits on the downbeats. The initial attack comes through on the BD, but then the entire signal is pushed down briefly, after which it comes back up. Pumping.

 

On the BD I hear a short gap between the horn stabs and the associated reverb - like a compressor dip. On the CDs this detail is completely washed out and that subtlety is not conveyed.

However, nothing else is affected is it? I'm suggesting that what we are hearing is perhaps on the master.

Listening to "Aire" off the BD I hear Revolver-esque pumping on the cymbal - again, not obvious on the CDs. Even if Craig Anderson put this mix though a Fairchild limiter or similar (or a plug-in modelled on similar) then I don't see how this would be achieved in mastering without affecting the whole mix. Also, I'd question why anyone would do such a thing in the mastering - can you think of any other examples where good old fashioned analog-style limiter splatter has been added in mastering in modern times? I've heard plenty of heavily compressed digital mastering but never like that.

Alternatively, what if Guercio had that in the mix but it is lost in the CD transfers? A combination if increased high frequency content in conjunction with the higher resolution could reveal such details on the master. Indeed, the increased reverb detail on these BDs is one of their main benefits to my ears.

I may be wrong, of course - all I know is that these BDs are brimming with such subtle details and yet I hear no distortion or fatiguing effect that I'd expect if the dynamic range was heavily limited with respect to the earlier editions, quite the opposite in fact.

 

It's not a detail that's "washed out", it's pumping that isn't present on the master.

It does affect the whole mix. That's the problem.

And again, compare the horn crescendos near the end of the clip. They are noticeably dynamically compressed, both aurally and visually, on the BD.

Another indicator of compression on the BD: the quiet intro is louder on the BD, but the loud horn crescendos are quieter. If, for example, you level match the intro between the BD and the Wilder, the rest of the song is quite noticeably lower in level on the BD.

 

'Level matching' when the EQ is significantly different is not so easy...

The CD (using Wilder disc to compare) sounds considerably drier than the BD, would you agree? Are you suggesting that this is due to compression and EQ emphasising the reverb as opposed to being a result of the increased resolution?

 

Try it yourself. I'm not talking about a small, subtle difference. When you match the intros, the rest of the song is about 3dB lower in level on the BD. That is *far* more than any difference in EQ can account for.

Try starting with lowering the BD 1.7dB. That will get it pretty close to the Wilder in the intro...but not anywhere else.

I don't think the Wilder sounds drier. That said, the reverb tails during the stops are definitely (relatively) louder, due to the compression. The horn blasts cause the compression to clamp down, and when it opens up, the reverb gets louder. On the Wilder, the horn blasts are louder, because they aren't being hit with compression. The reverb is (relatively) quieter, not because of lack of resolution, but because the signal wasn't pushed down in the first place.

Another way to compare is to line the two up side by side, in opposite channels. Slowing down the playback helps too. The compression on the BD becomes even more evident.

 

On a vectorscope (with persistence set to infinity) you can see a small amount of hard limiting in both channels on the BD clip but only the negative peaks are affected (makes sense given the negative voltage biased asymmetry seen in all clips). For what it's worth, when I say small, I've seen more severe clipping on a DCC gold CD.

In comparison, the Donnelly disc is heavily boxed in on all sides (i.e. both channels have positive and negative peaks limited) when viewed on the vectorscope - a classic case of brick-walling.

If the Wilder CD doesn't sound considerably drier to you then perhaps we won't be able to agree on the rest. To me, it sounds clearly compromised by being native 16/44.1 (pre noise shaping, like the Gastwirt) - missing detail that was lost in the ADC. The subtleties of the reverb trails, harmonics, micro-dynamics - all indistinct compared to the BD. Thanks to the noise shaping, the Donnelly disc is a little better than the earlier CDs in this regard but the excessive hard limiting all but negates any improvement there.

That's what I hear, anyway.

 

I'm not talking about clipping, I'm talking about very audible compression.

Again: try level matching the intros on the BD and Wilder (-1.7dB on the BD should just about get you there), and then compare the two throughout the entire clips. The BD will be ~3dB lower in level than the Wilder. That has nothing to do with resolution or micro-dynamics, that has to do with reduced dynamic range due to compression.

Compression that makes reverb tails louder than they should be is not "goodness".

I'm reminded of the Ask Me Why 45 vs LP debate. It was long claimed that the 45 was drier, and the LP had added reverb. Except...that's not the case. The reverb is *louder in level* on the LP, as that was mixed from the twin-track, while the 45 came from the delta mono tape, but the reverb itself is the same. It's a (roughly) similar situation here: the BD sometimes has more noticeable reverb, not because there's more resolution, but because compression is making it (relatively) louder in level.

Stepping away from scientific analysis for a second, a well respected mastering engineer shared this privately:

"Listening to the 2-Channel tracks on the Chicago Quadio box for the first time......'Saturday In The Park' has me shaking my head....the kick drum is...oh - I don't know....maybe 12 dB too loud?!?!?! Seriously sounds TERRIBLE.......there's massive LF rumble on this whole disc too - like it was mastered in a room that didn't have ANY response below about 80 Hz. Anyone else have this and can verify if I'm crazy or not?"

 

If loving these BDs is wrong then I don't want to be right...

Did the engineer verify their sanity in the end? What I like about the BDs is that they don't sound to me like they have been filtered for rumble, etc..

 

If you love them, well...okay. But they are objectively not what you believe they are.

Yep.

 

Again, not sure that simple level matching is valid with such differently EQ'd source material. I mean, if the kick were really 12 dB up (it isn't) with, as you maintain, heavy compression being applied, then how do you match the level?

 

Try it yourself and let us know. I've already done it.

 

Do I have to? Really, I'm OK to look at a waveform if pressed, or have the vectorscope running on the laptop to see what's going on, but once we get to destructive editing and such it's a little beyond my abilities these days (too many actions required of my brain with not enough cooperating neurons at this point).

I accept that your conclusions fit your observational perspective like a glove but when I try them on I look like OJ.



Delusion or not, I haven't enjoyed any other digital audio release as much as I have the blu-ray stereo from the Chicago Quadio box. Ultimately it all boils down to one's listening experience and mine is one of sheer wonderment.

I used to wonder what the point of "Free Form Guitar" was when I'd only heard it on CD. With the blu-ray I'm too busy marvelling at the sound field I'm hearing to even question it - that's my argument in a nutshell.

 

No? I must say I'm a bit confused, however. You don't seem to believe my statements regarding level matching, but then you are uninterested in doing it yourself. At the risk of wading into "making it personal" territory, it seems very odd that while you're usually someone that is a firm believer of scientific analysis and reasoning, with the Quadio set that is completely out the window. There are things with the sound that are quite different from previous releases, and it simply isn't a reasonable conclusion that those things are due to "high resolution", or that the Quadio set is somehow more true to the recordings. Just the opposite, in fact.

I'm happy to put together a clip or clips to help show all of this to you or anyone else interested, but if you're not actually interested (and from this vantage point, you don't seem to be), I'll pass.

And, as I stated previously, what you like is what you like. But that doesn't mean what you like is necessarily closer to the recording or the tapes.

 

Can you list the CD's that were used for the Gastwirt and Donnelly remasters.

Thanks

Scott

 

I'd be interested to see it (not saying you have to do it) - just not able to actually perform such tasks without difficulty and distress (what I have is like MS and may actually turn out to be that). I used to do all that stuff but these days I'm more about theory than experiment.

I'm always happy to see experimental evidence though, judging its validity is one of life's pleasures that I can still enjoy

 

Sure thing.

Gastwirt version: Chicago VII Columbia CK 32810 / DIDP 070871. DADC pressing. Matrix DIDP 070871-1. I purchased this CD when it was initially released, longer ago than I care to remember. So far as I know, this was the first US release of Chicago VII on compact disc.
Donnelly version: Chicago VII Rhino R2 76177. Matrix wea mfg Olyphant (something below this that's too small for me to read) X18577 (then in different font->) M1S6 Cl (then back to initial font->) 3 R2 76177-2 RE-1 02

For completeness and to recap: the Wilder track is from Group Portrait (the longbox, first issue) and the BD is from the Quadio set.

 

Great and thanks for the info.