Chicago Remasters-SOS

Yes, it is a fact. I have the original longbox issue of the gold Mastersound CTA, and the foldout paper insert says the following:

(verbatim quotation begins)

Reissue Producer: Amy Herot
Mastered by Doug Sax & Gavin Lurssen at The Mastering Lab, Los Angeles
Consulting Engineer: Kevin Boutote, Sony Music Studios

Each MasterSound disc is guaranteed to have been manufactured from the first generation mastertapes, actual session work tapes, or other original recording sources available. Where possible, original producers, mastering engineers, or the artists themselves have assisted in the production to insure the finest possible sound.

(end of verbatim quotation)

This credit elicited a semi-retraction from Rhino in the ICE "CD Watchdog" column this month. Apparently Rhino had been claiming that their reissues were the first time any Chicago CDs had been made from the original mixdown stereo masters. A reader wrote in, quoting the Mastersound verbiage above, and ICE asked a Rhino rep to comment. His comment was that no one seemed to know for sure whether the gold CD was made from the master tapes (I have to say I find this vague claim HIGHLY dubious) but that perhaps just to be clear they should say that this is the first time the masters had been used, aside from one premium-priced audiophile edition.

Now, think about the rep's statement. It seems to me to be classic Cover Your A** non-denial denial. The Rhino marketing campaign was caught dead to rights in a misstatement of fact. To defend themselves, they do an unconvincing, shoulder-shrugging "who knows?" and then retreat to a fairly snide remark that boils down to more marketing-speak. Frankly, I find this kind of corporate behavior condescending and evasive, and it makes me wonder what else I'm not being told.

Gardo

P.S. I can't help speculating that Doug Sax may have mastered the original LP. There's no mastering credit on that LP, so it's pure speculation on my part. Does anyone know?

 

Chicago's debut LP was mastered by Fred Catero.

 

My Santana CD credits Bob Breault and Eric Prestidge with original engineering.

 

I think he was the producer for "Abraxas" and "Santana III". I know he engineered "Child Is Father To The Man" and "Cheap Thrills". Obviously one of the better engineers. To my knowledge, Catero never engineered another Chicago release.

 

I agree. I bought CTA and found it to be very LOUD. I dumped it to the hard drive and the wavs are compressed and clipped. I stopped at that CD and haven't bought another since.

 

I first listened to the new CTA while relaxing on the couch.

I immeditaely noticed that something sounded weird. I could haear all kinds of things going on...drop-outs, distortion, tape ramping...

Then I put on Disc One of my Mother's "Group Portrait" box.

TOTAL difference.

I then did some A/B on "Introduction":

The Box Set sounds like a flat transfer...full, natural, warm sound...there are some dropouts but they're not particularly noticeable (obvious master tape flaws).

The Rhino disc sounds like everything has been squashed together and then shoved up in your face...it has the same dropouts, but here they are a lot more notceable, because of the way it was mastered. There's also some additional interference and clipping that I can hear.

No question. This Rhino remaster blows.

 

On the original jacket, I see his credit as engineer, but I don't see a credit for LP mastering. How do you know he actually cut the LP lacquer? I ask this not to challenge you, but to make sure there's no misunderstanding--and because I'm just curious about the source of your info.

Cheers,
Gardo

 

The LP jacket was my source. "Engineered" was what I should've said. Who cut the laquer? Beats me. Maybe Steve knows.

 

I'm really curious to know what they story behind the master is. It seems as if some of the faults (tape problem at the start of Introduction, gap before Listen) have only ever been heard before on the old CBS/Chicago Records CD (and NOT the LP, box set, or gold versions). Think its possible they just mastered CTA from the old Gastwirt CD? Has anyone compared the two for stuff like fades (ie, to see if the Rhino issue has any longer fades than the Gastwirt version)?

It sure seems odd that only those two versions have those faults...

 

I agree: it's very odd.

Here are some timings I have for the LP, the Gastwirt remaster, the Sax remaster, and the Donnelly/Rhino remaster. I've rounded to the half-second. I got the timings by ripping/recording the segue into Sound Forge, selecting the piano sustain, and looking at the length of the selection. (I matched in and out points within a tenth of a second or so by zooming the waveforms as I did the selections.) For this comparison, the piano sustain lasts from the moment the band cuts out, leaving only the piano, to the moment "Listen" kicks in.

LP: 26 seconds
Gastwirt remaster: 21.5 seconds. The sound actually continues all the way to "Listen," but Gastwirt fades it down pretty aggressively several seconds before "Listen." For all intents and purposes, the piano is inaudible after about 18 seconds, so the effect of the segue is lost. I have no idea why the interval loses about 4.5 seconds--this seems very strange. The Gastwirt master also seems eq'd to cut out hiss, or perhaps it's also NoNoised.
Sax remaster: 26 seconds. Just like the LP, without the light rain of surface noise.
Donnelly/Rhino remaster: about 26.5 seconds--BUT here things get weird. The actual fade goes about 25 seconds, aggressively faded after about 22 seconds. Then at the 25 second mark, we get digital black for 1.5 seconds. So both Grant and I are right. Donnelly fades down (but not quite out) the piano sustain early, AND inserts a 1.5 second gap before "Listen."

Of all the tamperings, Donnelly's makes the least sense. Is he using the Gastwirt master? Interesting question. My hunch is that he's using the same tape source. He couldn't be using the CD, because his piano sustain is actually longer than Gastwirt's. But with the "Introduction" flaw, the evidence suggests the same tape.

I didn't measure the Wilder "Group Portrait" remaster, but my memory is that the piano sustain here is just like the LP--and thus also just like Sax.

Something's up with this Rhino CTA and I'd like to get to the slimy bottom of it. Time for that letter to ICE.

Gardo

 

Ok, thanks for clearing that up. It's clear then, that the new CD doesn't come directly from the Gastwirt CD. The issue, then, is what tapes were used.

That sure is strange how the start of Introduction is slow like that.

Man, I'm listening to CTA now, and the distortion in the horns is really annoying.

Don't these people listen to their work?

 

Gardo, my next thing is to check the fade/length on the box. I wish I had done that a couple of days ago.

 

No problem, Grant--got the timing for you here:

Sax and Wilder ("Group Portrait") time out the same, plus or minus a tenth of a second (easily explained by operator inexactitude ).

Interestingly, the tonality of these two is very close though not identical. The piano sound is very nearly the same. Wilder has a wee bit brighter sound, audible as a little more hiss. Sax has a wee bit (I'm talking WEE bit) fatter sound, audible as a little less hiss and a little more mid-bass on the piano.

The differences between the two masters are more evident when the whole band is cooking--but really, Wilder has done a great job on the CTA tracks. That whole "Group Portrait" effort is a real surprise: a box set done right with great flat transfers and a wonderful set of liner notes. The Sax gold disc is still smoother and richer, but only by a bit.

Amazing that one corporation--Sony--does quality work in this instance (and on a band that had already left their fold) while Rhino/Warners does such shoddy work on the CTA remaster. At least part of that shoddiness is a deliberate effort to make the disc louder and more "grabby." Ach! The result is just dreadful.

I really think there's not much point in talking about "Rhino" anymore. It's just a baby-boomer sucker-punch imprint of the real company, AOL-Time/Warner. Ugh.

Gardo