'Classic Track' for discussion: 'Mr. Tambourine Man' - The Byrds

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Bob Lovely, Aug 10, 2003.

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  1. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Mikey,

    Great contibution! When I read the instrument placement on this 'work part' mix, as described, it does not match up to the sound on the Ace comp. that Ken and I discussed earlier in this thread. I suspect on the Ace comp. 'Chartbusters, Vol. 2' that they mastered the Mono mix on a Stereo machine. This mix contains no separation at all, to my ears, and the differences are only barely discernable under the analysis of Ken's computer.

    Thanks the wonderful historical info...

    Bob:)
     
  2. JPartyka

    JPartyka I Got a Home on High

    Location:
    USA
    Hmm ... I have both the MTM reissue CD and the GH SACD, so I guess when I get home tonight I can play 'em back to back and see how they compare. I'd be surprised if they didn't use the same mix.
     
  3. RetroSmith

    RetroSmith Forum Hall Of Fame<br>(Formerly Mikey5967)

    Location:
    East Coast
    Hi Bob...thanks for the kind words.

    Yes, my guess is that you are right, that mix on Chartbusters must have originated from the mono tape.

    The "Work" mix I described is CLEARLY not mono, its just lousy, but as I mentioned, it seems as tho it was done for internal use by Melcher and certainly not to be released.

    MTM must be one of the most "different mixes released" hits ever. We have:

    Original Mono
    Fake Stereo
    Puky stereo
    Nice three track stereo (1990)
    Mono alternate mix (I think this DOES exist, with louder drums)
    8 track Stereo Remix

    Reminds me of "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" and all ITS incarnations

    Mikey
     
  4. mudbone

    mudbone Gort Annaologist

    Location:
    Canada, O!
    Mikey, where is this mix on cd? This is becoming very confusing.

    mud-
     
  5. indy mike

    indy mike Forum Pest

    So, being such a monster truck hit in the first place, howcome wasn't a stereo mix done when the single was hot in '65? That seems to be the case with a lotta Terry Melcher productions (ala Paul Revere and the Raiders' Just Like Me)...
     
  6. Beatle Terr

    Beatle Terr Super Senior SH Forum Member Musician & Guitarist

    Hey blame Steve for that, all I did was ask if Terry Melcher was Doris Day's Son.:D
     
  7. RetroSmith

    RetroSmith Forum Hall Of Fame<br>(Formerly Mikey5967)

    Location:
    East Coast
    Working. baby

     
  8. mudbone

    mudbone Gort Annaologist

    Location:
    Canada, O!
    Steve's been known to hijack a thread or two.

    mud-:D
     
  9. John DeAngelis

    John DeAngelis Senior Member

    Location:
    New York, NY
    I'm confused. "Mr. Tambourine Man" was recorded by the Byrds at Columbia Studios in Jan 1965, and you're saying it was originally recorded on an 8-track recorder? That seems to make no sense. I can't believe Columbia Studios had an eight-track back then.
    Please explain.

    JD
     
  10. mudbone

    mudbone Gort Annaologist

    Location:
    Canada, O!
    Re: Working. baby

     
  11. RetroSmith

    RetroSmith Forum Hall Of Fame<br>(Formerly Mikey5967)

    Location:
    East Coast
    1965

    >>>>>It Sure is, Indy. Sometimes, I think that they were just really rushing to get the Lp out to capitalize on the 45 charting and they just used the Hit version because it was correct and it was easier, not to mention cheaper, because the mixes for two songs (A side and B Side) of the Lp would already be ready to go.

    And youre right about Just Like Me...same thing.

    Also, one thing I forgot was that Melcher doing his three track "reduction" mix on MTM was, thats the way he worked. He did the exact same thing on some of The "Bruce and Terry" stuff and also "The Rip Chords" .
    I guess he preferred concentrating on only three tracks for that final Mono mix, with effects. Makes sense to me, actually.
     
  12. RetroSmith

    RetroSmith Forum Hall Of Fame<br>(Formerly Mikey5967)

    Location:
    East Coast
    Columbia

     
  13. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Location:
    Livonia, MI
    I am now wondering if the "almost mono" mix on the Chartbusters CD may be the inferior stereo mix Mikey mentioned, but severely narrowed in an attempt to make it sound less wonky. Are there any other CD sources for the mono "MTM"?

    Regards,
     
  14. RetroSmith

    RetroSmith Forum Hall Of Fame<br>(Formerly Mikey5967)

    Location:
    East Coast
    Kenny, I would think that in the case, they would just use the mono hit mix.

    Know what I mean?

    I also asked my source last night about where the the "wonky" mix can be heard, and he said he would investigate and get back to me.
     
  15. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Ken,

    I still think my theory about the Mono mix being mastered on a stereo machine is what happened here.....the compression matches the Mono 'hit' single mix...

    Bob:)
     
  16. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Location:
    Livonia, MI
    If there was a not so great rough stereo mix done by the same producer/engineer around the time of the mono mix for whatever reason, it might match pretty closely, too. The fact that there are other mono mixes on the same compilation that do not have this issue also makes me wonder about it. Anyway, that's why I am curious about other possible sources.

    Regards,
     
  17. John DeAngelis

    John DeAngelis Senior Member

    Location:
    New York, NY
    Re: Columbia

     
  18. RetroSmith

    RetroSmith Forum Hall Of Fame<br>(Formerly Mikey5967)

    Location:
    East Coast
    No problem Johnny.

    Youre right about The Beatles, in fact, George Martin was REALLY pissed because he was still forced to record on the EMI 4 track machines when 8 track was commonplace and 16 track was just around the corner!!!
    How they did "Sgt Pepper" on that 4 track really is a great story and a great book.

    There were a lot of goofball things going on in the smaller American studios that are sort of forgotten now, mainly because the enginners were doing things on their own and didnt document it. I know that RCA had a way back in the early 60s to sync two 3 tracks together to get 6 tracks via some sort of motor variac. My friends dad worked on that. Even before this, electronic music fanatics has all sorts of ways to make like 4 different tape decks play in sync at the same time. Some of this got imported to the studios, and some of it was used to make records. But who knows which ones? Sometimes, they got goofy stuff to work just long enough to make a mono mix, and once they had that they were happy.

    This is one of the rarely mentioned reason why for some songs, there is no official multitrack tape......because in some cases, the engineers "rigged" up Rube Goldberg type setups just long enough to get a mix, and that became the only tape. Those engineers of the early 60s werent just mixers, they were real electronics guys who knew how to make equipment do things they werent designed to do. Today, a lot of young engineers dont even know how to use a frequency generator to calibrate a tape machine!!!!
     
  19. Bob Lovely

    Bob Lovely Super Gort In Memoriam Thread Starter

    Ken,

    You have a point to consider. Solving a mystery like this is not easy. I will listen to that version again tonight and see if I hear anything else that I missed before in my earlier session.

    Bob:)
     
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