Classical Discussion: The Post-War Avant-Garde

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Mirror Image, Apr 1, 2021.

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  1. Mirror Image

    Mirror Image 200 Years Of Anton Bruckner Thread Starter

    Location:
    United States
    The Post-War Avant-Garde

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    [From top to bottom: Pierre Boulez, György Ligeti, Karlheinz Stockhausen, Iannis Xenakis and Luigi Nono]​

    This thread is to discuss the group of composers that permeated the classical music scene starting in the 1960s. These composers ushered in a completely different style of composition and they sought to tear down the walls of traditionalism by creating works of such originality that it shocked their audiences.

    Who are some of your favorites composers from this particular time? Any favorite works? Recordings? I’d love to hear from all of you!
     
  2. Simoon

    Simoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    With a few exceptions, the vast majority of my classical listening is post WWII composers.

    My only problem is, I am not sure where to draw the line between post WWII composers, and those that are also avant-garde. I post over at talkclassical.com quite a bit, where the vast majority of members are pretty vocal anti-modernists. And for them, the least amount of atonality or dissonance classifies music as being avant-garde.

    But some scholars and musicologists do not classify music as being avant-garde, unless it is "necessarily political, social, and cultural critique, so that it challenges social and artistic values by provoking or goading audiences" - Larry Sitsky. So, it seems that a lot of classical music that is sometimes classified as avant-garde, is actually, experimental, not avant-garde.

    Sitsky again claims, " modernists of the post–World War II period, such as Milton Babbitt, Luciano Berio, Elliott Carter, György Ligeti, and Witold Lutosławski, never conceived their music for the purpose of goading an audience and cannot, therefore, be classified as avant-garde. Composers such as John Cage and Harry Partch, on the contrary, remained avant-gardists throughout their creative careers."

    So, does the mere fact that a composer uses: atonality, polytonality, serial techniques, extended techniques, etc., (as Ligeit did) make a composer avant-garde, or are they just being experimental?

    Among my favorite composers are:

    Elliott Carter (may be my favorite composer)
    Ligeti
    Penderecki
    Joan Tower
    Charles Wuorinen
    Joseph Schwantner
    Harrison Birtwistle
    Magnus Lindberg
    Thomas Ades
    Thea Musgrave

    And of course, the 2nd Viennese school: Berg, Schoenberg, Webern
     
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  3. Simoon

    Simoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Charles Wuorinen - Microsymphony

     
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  4. Jamsterdammer

    Jamsterdammer The Great CD in the Sky

    Location:
    Málaga, Spain
    Morton Feldman - Rothko Chapel (1971)

    "In Feldman's serene and contemplative ritual, 'Rothko Chapel' (1971), a sense of the surroundings that led to its commission is fundamental to the listening experience. Intended as an environmental soundscape for the fourteen huge canvases of the Rothko Chapel in Houston, Texas, the work's blend of declamation, lyricism, and delicate color (soprano, chorus, viola, tympani, chimes, and vibraphones) releases a quiet grandeur that gives rise to a new connotation to the word Minimalism. The attendant simplicity, solemnity, and stasis were not newly found, however, but had been refined over a career." Soundings, Music in the Twentieth Century, Glenn Watkins, Schirmer, 1995, P. 669.

     
  5. Daedalus

    Daedalus I haven't heard it all.....

    [​IMG] Great thread idea. Let me mention Alfred Schnittke-one of my favorite modern composers. His music was championed by Gennady Rozhdestvensky in the Soviet Union originally and elsewhere in later years. I have yet to hear any Schnittke music that hasn’t been fascinating, albeit challenging.
     
  6. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    About half of my record collection is post WWII modern classical to about 1970. The big ones for me when I began to get interested (more than 50 years ago) were:
    Cage
    Feldman
    Wolff
    Brown
    Foss
    Stockhausen
    Ligeti
    Penderecki
    Bussotti
    Partch
    Xenakis
    Scelsi
    Nancarrow
    Wolpe
    Wuorinen
    N. Huber
    Boulez
    Maderna
    Ichiyanagi
    Takemitsu
    Cardew
    Berio
    Davidovsky
    Oliveros
    Riley
    Reich
    Subotnick

    etc., a number of whom I later studied or performed with, or whose compositions I presented in concert. At the age of 16 I befriended the pianist/composer David Tudor and he became an important figure in my life.

    Glad to see this topic, I’m still very fond of music from this period, though admittedly, some of it now strikes me as ‘the emperor’s new clothes’, particularly chance and aleatoric pieces. Look forward to discussions of particular works. I’m guessing this thread will be of interest to only a handful of people here on the forum.

    BTW-I did my M.A. thesis on avant-garde music notation of the 1950’s-60’s.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
  7. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    I studied composition with Birtwistle for one semester. Very nice man.
     
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  8. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    I’ll nominate one masterpiece from this period for starters: Stockhausen’s Hymnen. Am I right?
     
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  9. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    You are, and I agree with most of your composer choices too.
     
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  10. Simoon

    Simoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    Yeah, your list reads like a large part of my classical collection.

    While I am afraid you are correct, I always have hope that a few adventurous ears will have a modicum of curiosity, and open minds.

    I mean, I didn't become a fan of this type of music until I was in my 50's.
     
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  11. Vangro

    Vangro Forum Resident

    Location:
    London
    Herbert Eimert, Epitaph für Aikichi Kuboyama, for speakers and human voice (1957-62)

     
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  12. SRC

    SRC That sums up Squatter for me

    Location:
    New York, NY
    John Cage became a big deal to me in high school, it was around 1990 and I found this documentary on TV
    (I'm 95% sure it was this one)


    and it seemed so fascinating I threw a VHS tape in and recorded most of it, and re-watched it many times. I even used some audio from it in a few of my bizarre (I'll hesitate to call them avant-garde) 4-track recorder sound collage experiments (which seems oddly "meta" now). I ended up writing a college admission essay on Cage.

    I've moved away from that world in the time since, but it still feels a part of me somewhere, I'm really glad I went through it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
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  13. Catbird

    Catbird Forum Resident

    I’m in! Though I know nothing about these people, and haven’t heard of many of them, so I won’t be contributing.

    But this could be a fascinating read amongst an endless sea of forum schlock.
     
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  14. Daedalus

    Daedalus I haven't heard it all.....

    This box contains a sampling of works by the composers we are looking to discuss in this thread:[​IMG]
     
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  15. Simoon

    Simoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    No way!

    It is much more important for there to be yet another Beatles thread, than learn about new and boundary pushing music.

    ;)
     
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  16. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    Yeah, this is a great piece.
     
  17. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    I became a fan in Junior High in the 1960’s. I’d go to parties with my Stockhausen records and sneak them on in between the Beatles and Stones. For some reason I never got invited back. LOL. Fortunately for me there were 3 other kids my same age on the street I grew up on and we were all into the same music, all wanting to become composers. How incredible was that? We were together almost every day for years, listening to and discussing music, going to concerts, showing each other our compositions etc. A great time.
     
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  18. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    I could have easily named dozens more.
     
  19. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    It would be especially interesting if you were to explore some of these composers and give us your impressions.
     
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  20. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    I shared a joint with Wuorinen once at a party at his brownstone. Neither of us said a word! I have a lot of his scores in my library. Do you know the String Trio? That’s one of my favorites.
     
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  21. Simoon

    Simoon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    This YouTube channel might be of interest to some people here.

    Samuel Andreyev is a contemporary composer from Canada, who has some great vids on avant-garde and contemporary music.

    He has interviews, his own lectures, and most importantly, videos where he explains various composer's work. With titles like, "Understand Varese", or "Atonality Explained", or "Frownland by Captain Beefeart & his Magic Band: Analysis".

    https://www.youtube.com/user/temporalfissure/videos

    Great stuff for those just dipping their toes in....
     
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  22. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    Cage is especially attractive to us in our youth I think. I was obsessed with him in my teens. Met him a number of times. 50 years later I think he was a fraud and actually rather dogmatic. I don’t think he actually enjoyed music that much. Though I’ll probably always enjoy his music from 1942-8.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
  23. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    Great suggestion. Sam does a very good job.
     
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  24. elaterium

    elaterium Forum Resident

    One composer I forgot to mention in my list who I was really big on was Mauricio Kagel.
    Loved his theatrical sense and sense of the absurd. Anyone seen his films?
     
  25. DJ LX

    DJ LX Forum Resident

    Location:
    Madison WI
    Sony Masterworks also issued a box set a few years ago focused on some of the composers in question. I currently have CD 6 - The World of Harry Partch, which is superb. I'd love to get the entire thing though.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2021
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