Cleaning records: Demineralized water or distilled water?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by mitchcortes, Oct 20, 2014.

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  1. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

  2. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Geez, water....one could mistakenly think we're preparing for surgery here.
     
    quicksilverbudie likes this.
  3. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    I think that's a shorter version of the one I linked to from Audiogon at post #21. And I do think it is helpful, if only to point to the fact that there really aren't "standards" for 'pure' water, without knowing more. He also makes the point that multiple processing methods, short of reagent grade 1, can be found in store bought water that is relatively cheap. I tried to track him down, but apart from a flurry of posts made in 2005-6, he seems to have evaporated, apparently a chem E guy from Dallas at the time.
     
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  4. martinb4

    martinb4 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Irvine, California
    Also from Argentina here, and I'd tend to agree with Waxfreak...:shrug: :shh:
     
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  5. Analogman

    Analogman Well-Known Member

    I was just giving my friend a hard time..........but Irvine's a long way from Buenos Aires :tiphat:
     
  6. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    Yes Bill, sorry to repeat the direction. Stepping back into this thread I completely missed it.

    The fact is many of us have covered this ground numerous times here, and on A'gon since Justin, so kindly, offered his expertise to us on this subject first in (2005?) My, has time flown. I spoke to him by email a couple of years ago and he commented that it might be time for a "refreshing" update.

    And as one of our friendly Gorts has pointed out before, "the search function is our friend". Perhaps we have covered water enough?
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2015
  7. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    Or not enough? I dunno, the issue of cleaning is a constant, and this one adds the twist of trying to source the stuff in exotic foreign lands, so the plot always remains fresh.
    If you have a contact for Justin Time, I'll reach out to you privately. I actually wouldn't mind talking to him myself.
     
  8. marcfeld69

    marcfeld69 Forum Resident

    Thanks for clarifying this (pun intended). Until I start meeting people over here who are more technically-minded, it involves trial an error, I guess. I have only really just started to clean records this new way and it's too early to tell, really, I have an incredibly beat-up record that is Crackle City. I've washed it at least 2 times now thoroughly with washing-up liquid, filtered water, and rinsed with purified water and it's still just as crackly but it sounds clearer, for sure. At least as far as memory serves. But this is one with tons of micro-scratches. I think I have to test a medium-beat-up record where I write down specific instances of crackling on one track and then see if I can still hear them after a wash.

    Tiny crackles or noise don't bother me anywhere near as much as they do some here, so I've just got to get to a place where I notice a reasonable difference.

    I usually give every record a wipe with the carbon brush from Auditotechnica that comes with some solution and that is fine for new records (I think).

    One tip if anyone can give me here. When I have a lot of dust and you I the brush across the record, sometimes it's almost impossible to lift the dust off. I saw a guy pull the brush down across the grooves to the edge on a YouTube video. That has to be wrong? That surely just put the dust back into the grooves?
     
  9. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    You've hit on one of my gripes with dry-brushing; you can, with some (like the Hunt EDA) get all the surface dust in a nice line, but scooping it off the record doesn't seem to work. Most people seem to do what you've described- cant the brush at an angle or swipe it sideways once you've done some rotations, and attempt to push it off the surface. To me, it is half-assed, and could do more harm than good, which is why some people run the record back through an RCM before playing.
    My approach is to clean the hell out of a record initially, resleeve it, and then do as little as possible afterwards. Yes, I will dry brush where necessary, but I try to avoid doing anything more to the record once it has been effectively cleaned. As to the 'solution' that comes with the AudioTechnica brush, what's that? And do you really need it? (I like to think that "less is more" when it comes to putting anything on the record and wonder if that stuff may actually be attracting more dust or causing it to stick). There's no 'one way' with record cleaning- everybody has their favored methods, equipment and approaches. Are you using a record cleaning machine? (sorry if I missed it in this thread).
     
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  10. Bolero

    Bolero Senior Member

    Location:
    North America
    I take the Bear Grillis approach:

    after drinking a shot of my own piss, I urinate into a Spinclean, spin the vinyl, give it a good lick and then let it air dry

    in truth: I only do this so I can have another excuse to drink my own piss!


    [​IMG]
     
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  11. RalphNYC

    RalphNYC Well-Known Member

    Location:
    NYC
    People worry about solids in the water that leave a residue but aren't there also going to be solids in the various soaps or cleaners that people mix with water to clean a record? Even if you use the purest of waters, don't you still have a residue from the detergent?
     
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  12. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    Only if you are not rinsing. And that is the idea behind using ultrapure water in terms of cleaning records. It can be used in combination with enzymes and/or surfactants in a first stage cleaner but it's main purpose is to perform the rinse function, which is in essence the final cleaning stage and removing all residues left behind by the first stage of cleaning, as ultrapure is an extremely aggressive solvent that will not leave a residue behind.

    That is why ultrapure is used in applications in which it is extremely important that no residues are left behind (semiconductors, etc., see the link below).

    There is a big difference between ultrapure and lower level but still higher purity waters (ie. distilled, reverse osmosis, etc.).

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultrapure_water
     
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  13. David Ellis

    David Ellis Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cheshire, UK
    I do exactly the same and have changed to L'Art du Son. I think it's brilliant. I started with distilled at a silly price then changed to demin at around £2/5ltrs. No difference that I could hear. And if its good enough for the pharma industry its good enough for me. Yes I know this slightly contradicts what I posted earlier but you live and learn.
     
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  14. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    No intent to brush off anyone's new interests in record cleaning and the science/craft associated to that, AND of course the benefits. After living and working for some time in Japan I will express that in general, as a culture, they have a lot up on us as far as being tidy, perhaps a common state of mind. Coming home the first few times made me aware of just how filthy are cities, roads, and parks can be compared to how other folks live. But I would agree that figuring out what is one guys idea of best process, or best materials, or even several others, doesn't begin to cover the whole of possibilities. My thought was simply that we seem to continue to reinvent the wheel a bit and never come upon a collective mind of what might well be basics in a "best practice". I work in an industry where we are forced by time and cost to strip processes down to their essence, create a best practice for the rudimentary tasks and supply chains. My apologies, for the fact that it leaks into everything I am involved with. But our hobby seems to have lots of those twists, as you say, and doesn't always easily distill down to anything simple at all. And there are now a lot of folks that enjoy vinyl, perhaps for the first time and need to have input from some of us who have been in the trenches for a while. (all puns intended) Sharing ideas is never a waste of time.

    I will PM you about our friend Justin.
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2015
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  15. I share the same concerns as you about residue from cleaning agents. As such, one of my very "last steps" is to rinse the record in lab grade water. I have a home made ultrasonic cleaner, and I cycle the record through using only the lab water with no additives. I buy quite a few used records and some of them are pretty dirty. Some even have mold and mildew on them, as a result of the warm humid climate here and improper storage by the previous owner. I pre-clean these"dirty demons" with a mixture of 99% pure Isopropyl alcohol (from the pharmacy), distilled white vinegar, a little Dawn dish washing detergent and distilled water. After pre-cleaning with this concoction I rinse off as much of the cleaning solution as possible----then comes the final rinse with lab grade water in the ultrasonic bath.

    Everyone has their own method for cleaning records and this is what I do. As long as the album is not damaged by the previous owner or the vinyl is just "noisy" to begin with, my method takes the noise down to a reasonably low level. For albums that are fairly clean to begin with---I try to stick with just the ultrasonic bath with the lab grade water.
     
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  16. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    That's why so many of us stress to RINSE, RINSE SOME MORE, and RINSE AGAIN. It is cheap and easy and possibly the most important, and overlooked single steep.
     
  17. marcfeld69

    marcfeld69 Forum Resident

    Hi Bill, thanks for the wise words. Thing is, I don't draw the brush down to the edge because that has to put the dust back in the grooves, surely(?); that's just something I saw on a video where the guy literally drew the brush towards his stomach in a straight line. I guess I just keep canting the brush until it comes off, or at least till the line gets really fine. I suppose the stylus has to pick up the rest up! This doesn't happen all the time, though. I don't have an RCM but I have just started doing my own washing but I am still getting the hang (as you can see above), taking bits of advice here and there. I think I will get an RCM when I have a windfall because quite frankly it's not that practical in our house. Until then ... As for the liquid, I have NO IDEA what's in it because it's in Japanese. I can only assume that as it's sold in Disk Union and it's Audio Technica (they also have some separate cleaning fluid) and similar places, it can't be that bad, but it would be nice to find out what it is in it. But we are only talking about two or three drops occasionally into the brush.
     
  18. marcfeld69

    marcfeld69 Forum Resident

    So it's O.K. to use filtered tap water as long as you use distilled etc. (in Japan purified water as far as I'm concerned) in the final stage? It would get a bit expensive to use purified for every stage and I would have to find some way of running it, I guess I could just put it in a container and spray it.
     
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  19. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    The use of water is solely as a carrier or flushing agent. Its purpose in record cleaning is to aid the removal of contaminates from the grooves. Which also means, not adding any contaminates in the process.

    With all due respect to each and everyone's choice of just how pure our cleaning solutions and rinse should be, I feel the answer is that the same quality of water should probably used throughout the vinyl cleaning process. If you would be interested in my choice, as I have stated consistently, tap water is something I would avoid, both for drinking and for cleaning vinyl records. Even as good as tap water is in the USA or Japan, I have concern over the levels of organic and inorganic contaminates that still exist. Single carbon filtered tap water is better, but still not quite as far as I would consider adequate. Reverse Osmosis RO water is what I prefer to us because I have invested in the unit for our drinking water at home and it competes well with the quality of double distilled for record cleaning. Steam distilled water from most supermarkets would also be fine (and cost effective) and provided in recyclable high-density polyethylene jugs (the same as dairy milk). Many folks have recommended different brands of filtered bottle water, provided in PET bottles (also very recyclable), and although many of them may be suitable, they are expensive in single unit pricing, and can create a huge waste footprint, if that kind of thing means anything to you. And last but not least, I personally think water for the use of record cleaning, the likes of "Regent" water etc. is silly, expensive, and excessive!

    In short, try to use the purest filtered water you can readily acquire and afford, and don't get stressed out about it, focus on just enjoying and sharing your music! Nothing, but nothing, matters more than that.

    Happy Listening!
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
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  20. Rich C

    Rich C Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northbrook, IL
    Pretty much a beginner here who has a VPI 16.5. I still tend to get a little nervous when cleaning my records.

    1) I have not yet done a rinse with water. My concern is that I am going to build up extra static in the record. Would you guys say that as long as a record is wet we are not building up extra static due to over vacuuming? And would you advice me to do a rinse on the records I have already cleaned with just water before playing again? With that thought in mind, would you advice to use just water quite often once a record has been thoroughly cleaned with a solution?

    2) Even if I lay down a so-called clean piece of cork after cleaning one side, I can't seem to put away a record without some specs of dust, or even tiny pieces of cork attached to the record, after vacuuming. And I find it very challenging to remove it with a carbon brush. Sometimes I even go back to the old disc washer method to get off the stubborn particles before playing a record. Am I being too fussy? This is especially noticeable in hard light when it is mostly dark in the room.

    3) Also I notice what I could only term a cloudy look to my vinyl after cleaning. In other words it looked shinier and more beautiful from the factory than it does after I clean it. Would a rinse of water take out that cloudy look? Assuming you guys understand what I am talking about here?

    4) My last question is unique to the VPI. I seem to obsess over draining the reservoir. Is it OK to clean a record or two and let the the vacuumed liquid sit in there for an extended period? Say I only want to clean one record and play it. Could I leave it in the reservoir for as long as I want so long as I don't over fill it? I have done this once, and I think it actually evaporated in there.
     
  21. Bill Hart

    Bill Hart Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    My take:
    1. No, don't do a stand-alone water rinse well after the time a record has been cleaned. The cleaning fluids usually have wetting agents, cleaning agents and often an anti-static component. Rinsing immediately after the record has been washed and vac dried helps get the residue off; rinsing days or weeks later won't accomplish that- the water is not a sufficient solvent to remove the fluid residue after it has fully dried.
    Percy Wilson in his original paper on record cleaning talked about leaving the records with a mild dampness, after drying, to reduce static; I think that depends on the particular steps you take.
    2. You shouldn't have cork mat residue- something is wrong with your mat or your approach. True, a cleaned record can attract particles and sleeve lint (the turntable rotation creates a vortex) and there is no great answer- dry brush is usually what people do to keep a cleaned record dust free; much may have to do with your choice of aftermarket inner sleeve.
    3. A film on the record suggests a fluid residue.
    4. When the VPI was originally released, people were using fluids that, I think, were typically alcohol based and it evaporated. Given that many fluids today are "green" and don't use volatile chemicals, and that people are using water to rinse, it probably is a good idea to drain the reservoir rather than let it sit for weeks. I don't see a need to drain it over the course of a day or two, but if my machines are dormant for any period of time, they get fully flushed and drained. Hope that helps.
     
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  22. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    I too use the VPI16.5, and find it a very economical workhorse. As a vacuum machine is essential to vinyl cleaning.

    1. Then what do you do? No rinse, one step? Static is not a permanent condition and can be dealt with after cleaning. Yes to rinsing, I don't believe in one-steps. Everything leaves behind something. The goal is to leave the least behind.
    2. Every living environment is populated with all kinds of vinyl contaminants. I don't see you, or anyone of us finding a way to avoid that.
    3. A visible cloud on fresh cleaned new vinyl, worries me. It may also be an audible cloud. One big reason why I am such a rinse advocate and don't believe in one-steps.
    4. I don't think it hurts to leave used solution in the VPI reservoir, but if it bugs you and you can accommodate, it wouldn't hurt to put a jug below the VPI table and open the drain tube straight into it. It will keep you from overflowing it and be a visual reminder when emptying needs to be done.
     
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  23. BuddhaBob

    BuddhaBob Forum Resident

    Location:
    Erie, PA, USA
    If you SEE it on an LP, it would be unusual not to HEAR it. Rinse well with the best water you can find, whatever you do in the way of cleaning before that point.
     
  24. Rich C

    Rich C Forum Resident

    Location:
    Northbrook, IL
    Thanks to Bill and VinylRob for some good advice to think over and put into practice.

    That cloudy look is troubling. One thing I do is to stop the vacuum right before the rotation of the turntable makes two passes. I learned this from a guy who made a youtube video as a way to avoid static buildup. I wonder if I am being overly concerned by that.

    I use Mofi liquid cleaner. But I have used the VPI liquid that came with the unit and added a little alcohol. I am definitely going to use a rinse from here on out. I will just start with distilled water.

    By the way, included with my VPI package I purchased from Music Direct was a can of cleaning agent called Premier. I really have no idea on how to use it. But I can tell it is good stuff. What I have been doing, when I use it, is to treat the record with Premier and use a Mofi and the VPI brush. Then I will clean with Mofi fluid and vacuum.

    I am wondering if I should be spraying this on the record and letting it dry after cleaning and rinsing. Here is a picture of the product. Do you guys use it or know what this stuff is?

    [​IMG]

    Here is what it says about the product from copy found at Soundstage Direct. Notice it does not say how to actually use this stuff or make it a part of your regime!

     
  25. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    One big aspect of keeping vinyl from airborne or resting surface contamination, as Bill commented, and I will reinforce. Don't leave your vinyl in paper sleeves, after cleaning, move to a better audiophile type sleeve (your pick). And it is a matter of habit, but I never leave vinyl laying out. I repeat, NEVER leave vinyl out of its protected sleeve unless it is being cleaned or being played, then back in the protective sleeve it goes. Then with the use of a dry brush before and after playing, you will be surprised just how much better your vinyls stay. I have actually had audio club members ask me, in pure astonishment, how do you keep you records soooo clean? My answer, deep cleaning (usually once) then don't leave them out of their sleeve, dry brush before and after play, then back in the sleeve, and most of all enjoy your music!
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2015
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