King Crimson "Sailors' Tales" Mega Box (November 2017)

Haskell tried his level best and most of the performances he turned in for KC are alright but you can hear on the "Indoor Games" laughter and in this newly uncovered "Happy Family" rehearsal that he was just gritting his teeth to get through it until he could split Crimson

 

Am I missing them, or are the previously available downloads from the Crim site gone with this recent overhaul?

 

Never mind - think I found my way to them. Tour Dates --> Date

 

The bass player on the audition/blows is NOT Boz. Likely it is Ric Kemp. Unfortunately, Boz was never that good. Fortunately, this tape turned up!

 

Ah, well there you go. I knew there had to be some good explanation. I don't mean to knock Boz, as he was just learning, but he does hold back the improvs from this period with his rather simple ostinatos. But, I know this box will pay dividends.

By the way, is there any discussion in the box about who's on the audition discs?

 

In the big essay they mention (and quote) Kemp. But they don't say definitively that it's him.

 

But given our previous exposure to this incarnation, I think we can both connect the dots.

 

Agreed.

 

Boz acquits himself quite nicely on the live pieces, and Collins just kills. I never realized before how dominant he was in this era.

 

Allow me to clarify: I didn't mean Boz was never *very* good, I meant he was not *as* good as Ric Kemp.

And yes, Mel was - and is - a superb player.

 

I disagree; Boz is a major hindrance in why this incarnation didn't last. But see below.

Well, lemme just say what you won't (and no issues there): Boz wasn't very good at all on bass in 1972-'72. I mean, he made it work but he never really elevated it like Greg Lake, John Wetton or Tony Levin. Simple, boring ostinatos are not what Crimson was all about. And I don't fault Boz for that; I fault Fripp for thinking that he could create a sufficiently improv-schooled bassist. He didn't, so oh well.

 

It’s interesting that Greg Lake was not really a bass player. He was really a guitar player and just ended up playing bass guitar for Crim. Wetton and Levin are bass players. I do like Greg’s playing on the first album and the live shows. Fripp felt that Greg wasn’t a true bass player which is why he had Peter Giles play on In the Wake instead of Greg.

 

I wish all "untrue" bass players played like Lake! Even Boz who definitely wasn't a good player back then managed to perform live with King Crimson and play stuff like "21st man". Mindblowing!

 

I agree. Greg was a brilliant bass player, that's for sure. I think what Robert Fripp meant, was that it took a bit longer from Greg to get his bass lines together. And of course, Boz only had a few weeks to learn how to play bass and sing at the same time, in King Crimson, of all bands. Not the easiest music to start with. He played some truly great bass with Bad Company.

 

Actually I am more impressed by Boz knowing that he fell into it so quickly.

I also think by Boz staying solid and out of the way it allows/forces Fripp and Colins out front more and they really shine

 

All of the above are valid observations, but as a bass player of 37+ years and a guitar player of 40+ years, these instruments are very similar and yet so very different, but the difference between the two depends on musical context. I was recruited to play bass for my HS production of Jesus Christ Superstar at age 16 (Senior year). I'd never touched a bass in my life, but I had over three years of guitar under my belt. Bass can be very easy or it can be very difficult. Point being, Greg Lake was a bass player, as was Boz.

Why? They both played it effectively in their situations. But Lake blew Boz out of the water IMO (in Crimson) because he was able to make it speak his language whereas Boz only made it speak the language of his band members. Both are valid approaches, I just happen to prefer the former to the latter. Imagine Duck Dunn playing bass for the Grateful Dead or Miroslav Vitous playing bass for the Carpenters. Both great players, but not the right players for the situation. I think Boz was a perfect fit for Bad Company, but not at all a good fit for Crimson. Lake, on the other hand, was a perfect fit for Crimson. Just listen to what he's doing under the Fripp solo section on 21st Century... on the studio debut. There aren't many great-sounding live recordings from this period, but he's got the chops. I guess the biggest difference between Lake and Boz (in ~1971) is that Lake was an instrumentalist and a singer whereas Boz was just a singer. But for Boz to become an instrumentalist in such a short time is very impressive, but he never got to the level of his predecessors or successors. This isn't surprising, nor is it a knock; just an observation...by King Crimson.

 

The bass is low in the mix on most of these recordings anyhow. Boz locks in well with Wallace and that's what really counts

 

Well, yes and no and this factor varies according to context. The bass player locking in with the drummer seems to be this golden rule that is expressed as gospel, but it's really not always a necessity. Sometimes fluidity in the rhythm section is what drives the music. Listen to Ornette Coleman's Free Jazz and try to decide if the two bass players are locked in with their respective drummers or whether the entire band is locked into the collective or are they just doing their own thing and somehow it all works? Either way, it works for me (and many others).

Now, if you want to tell me that in most music having the bass and drums locked into one another is important, I'd agree. But I would also counter that Wetton and Bruford often did their own thing and they weren't necessarily locked into one another, but what they did worked for whatever reason because they were both very brilliant on their respective instruments and they had a certain sympatico while driving different aspects of the music at the same time without being in lock step.

Since Crimson existed and still exists on some undefined edge of formal music, I'd argue that Boz' locking in with Wallace (which he did) is what makes this incarnation less of a formidable beast than the other incarnations of this band. They never really jumped off the cliff, in other words.

 

I agree. Bruford & Wetton were not exactly what one might call "a tight rhythm section" in a sense that Bruford & Squire were, but they were innovative, hot, and dominated the sound and the feel of that era of Crim. Same with the first U.K. album.

 

I'm on the fence about this one, having previously bought most of the previous boxes. I have the Marquee 1971 2CD release, using this as a benchmark how does the sound compare on the other live discs?
Also, no one else has mentioned anything else about the 'pops' that some complained of on the studio releases, is there any update?
Thanks in advance

 

SQ to my ears is generally good on this box. (I speak as someone who skipped the Larks' Tongues box precisely because the SQ was supposedly bad.) Less important than the SQ, though, is that this set really documents an incarnation of the band with a unique appeal in Collins' very prominent & jazz-idiomatic presence. Going in, this phase of the band didn't much interest me and those albums are not my favourites, but I'd already say that this set is more rewarding than the On & Off The Road & Thrak sets.

 

The sound isn't supposedly bad, it is, overall not very good. But it's passable and even decent at times. That said, the live playing on the Lark's box is so over the top transcendently phenomenal that if you have any interest in '72 Crimso, you should really seek it out.

If you don't want to go all in, at least get Zoom Club (Oct 13 '72), Beat Club (Oct 17 '72) and Guildford (Nov 13 '72) from dgm live/Collectors Club. The version of Larks I from Guildford features some of the most insane playing by anyone ever. Period.

 

I appreciate the recommendation but I'm really a casual fan of King Crimson and it would be ironic if I suddenly ended up as an accidental completist!

 

I’m involved in an internal debate of Starless Box VS. Larks Box VS. Sailors Tale Box

Starless is currently in the lead - only thing potentially stopping it is that I have the Road to Red box and I also have some of the live stuff via the classic 4 CD Great Deceiver set from the early 90’s.

 

Starless wins for me - that early '74 run of shows is hard to beat. And the sound quality is way ahead of the Larks box. RtR is great too. I mean, it's '70s Crimson.