Conflicted about Zep?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by michael landes, Apr 13, 2013.

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  1. mikefromlongisla

    mikefromlongisla Active Member

    Location:
    metro ny area
    Listening to OLD mouldy ole SOX, I would think, Clapton wouldn't be a fan of hisself these days.
     
  2. margaritatoldtom

    margaritatoldtom Well-Known Member

    Location:
    tucson az
    funny way to put it when they are both re-workings of a muddy waters/willie dixon blues standard and mariott's vocal is widely cited as the main inspiration for plant's ( minus the orgasmic hystrionics, of course), and the fact that plant was a huge small faces fan , seeing them perform whenever possible- plus the fact that the small faces recorded it 4 years before l.z.

    cheers,
    rob

    cheers
     
  3. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Well, yeah, Dixon ultimately sued and LZ settled out of court with Dixon paying him; and I think giving him a songwriting credit on "Whole Lotta Love," going forwards. "Whole Lotta Love" is basically a cover of "You Need Love" which Dixon wrote for Muddy circa 1962 -- I'd hardly call it a standard, it was an obscure record until the English band got their hands on it. When Dixon sued he had to be reminded of the song and it was never one that Waters played in his sets. The LZ record basically lifts the original lyrics almost whole. Clearly LZ also was inspired by the style of the Small Faces cover, but you know stylistic approaches get passed around and you can't copyright a style. Lyrics are a different story.
     
  4. margaritatoldtom

    margaritatoldtom Well-Known Member

    Location:
    tucson az

    good points all, and not saying theft in any formal sense, just amusing to me hearing plant -considered such an original vocalist - so obviously aping a now much more obscure contemporary on one of zep's biggest hits.

    cheers,
    rob
     
  5. JETman

    JETman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Knowing
    This thread has become painfully predictable. The humor of reading criticism based on a song so deeply entrenched in Zep's back (early) catalogue so as to assume that it signifies what the band was all about is not lost on me. With each album, the band evolved to such a degree that they were performing and writing songs which became much more identifiable as important to their legacy. To me, far better songs than Whole Lotta Love were produced in later albums like Physical Graffiti and Presence (not to mention III, IV and HOTH). Hell, I'd even reach for "In the Evening" from In Through the Out Door before I'd ever need to listen to WLL again. That being said, I shouldn't be surprised that this is exactly what Zeppelin detractors have always done and unfortunately, will always do.
     
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  6. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Or sarcastic. It is practically the same song. Unreal.
     
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  7. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    I'd have to disagree there really. The vocal performance is match that would be hard to defend but that Page riff...well that really makes the song. For me anyway.
     
  8. Holy Diver

    Holy Diver Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Too close for comfort, for me, but Zeppelin has many great songs that are original and kick butt. I don't know why they felt the need to do stuff like that.
     
  9. eddiel

    eddiel Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    Well the world is a better place with Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love in it :) [credit should have been given where it was due though]
     
  10. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Well, the band only cut 8 albums and the last of 'em almost 35 years ago, it's ALL back catalog. Personally, to my ears, and I thought this in the 1970s as well -- it was pretty much all downhill for the band after 1973. I think Physical Graffiti was a lousy album, the beginning of the end, long jams pad many of the songs, the inventively layered arrangements have been replaces by lazy, repetitive vamps, and the songs have pretty much nothing to say. There are gems on those last three Zep albums, but they're few and far between. The first five albums really contain the band's most consistent and inventive work.

    But of course it's also true that Whole Lotta Love isn't the only song the band appropriated in large measure without credit. So, you know, whatever Zep's merits, the band deserves the criticisms too.
     
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  11. JETman

    JETman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Knowing
    And so it goes. Thanks for helping to prove my point. You've conveniently ignored the world "early" in my opening sentence. And, for whatever it's worth, we all see things differently. Physical Graffiti just so happens to be my favorite album of the lot. You have an axe to grind, which is cool. Try to come up with some original arguments to prove their 'suckitude', though.
     
  12. PioneersOverC

    PioneersOverC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    It's interesting to read page after page of this Led Zeppelin thread. Although most of my feelings about the band have been touched on, I think I can find something to add.

    My feelings on Led Zeppelin are very conflicted. They are a very good band of talented musicians working together. Most of their records are consistently pretty good and listening to their BBC Sessions, various bootlegs, and the DVD with all of the live videos has me convinced they were a killer live act. I think it would be tough to argue the contrary. Because they more or less set the template for all blues/hard rock that followed it, they illustrate it's greatest strengths and deepest flaws. The riffage is arguably the best ever captured and nearly all of the tunes groove, however the macho posturing and 20 minute solos are pretty over-the-top.

    I don't think you can give them all that much credit for writing many of the songs that made them famous (e.g. Spirit's "Taurus" and Small Faces' cover of "You Need Love"). Again, those riffs don't lie, Page's talent for re-packaging others' tunes with monster riffs is staggering. I do however give them credit for moving past that stage of their career and hitting a vein of creativity with Houses of the Holy through Physical Graffiti and Presence. At this point they weren't just a band doing blues rock covers better than anyone else, but a band with original ideas about song-writing coupled with killer playing (and I admit, serious swagger). I think it also should be mentioned, they came up with nothing I'm interested in listening to after 1976 or so. In Through the out Door is much too painful for me.

    I think Led Zeppelin was a very good band with strengths and weaknesses that are both glaring to me. That being said, as a previous poster eloquently stated, "the world is a better place with Zeppelin's Whole Lotta Love in it". Couldn't agree more, buddy.
     
  13. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    I don't have an axe to grind, I have an opinion. Whether it's the same or a different opinion as other hold is meaningless to me, or to the nature of the opinion. FWIW, I never said nor do I believe the group "sucks"...in fact, I think the group was great and Page was a brilliant arranger of rock songs and the master of the rock riff. But I do think Physical Graffiti kinda sucks. "Kashmir" is great, but can't really get through the rest of the record. I don't hear at all what others hear in it.
     
  14. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    I almost completely agree with you in that my personal favorite eras of rock music would be somewhere between 1964-66, and also somewhere around 1983-86 (plus the birth of rock with Elvis, Chuck, Little Richard, etc.). But even though I'm one of those who think that punk had to happen because of the bloated nature of 70s rock, I still like Led Zeppelin. Sometimes a band is so great they transcend their era.
     
  15. love4another

    love4another Forum Resident

    I am conflicted about listening to Zep because Page is a Saturnist(Satanist) and Bonzo was a violent rapist.
     
  16. JETman

    JETman Forum Resident

    Location:
    Knowing
    I will say that this thread is more unique than others in at least one way. I rarely know which comments to take seriously.
     
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  17. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I am just as concerned about artists who promote or practice sex outside of marriage.
     
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  18. zbir

    zbir Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cluj-Napoca, RO
    Isn't it cute that The Small Faces didn't give credit for their cover either?
     
  19. margaritatoldtom

    margaritatoldtom Well-Known Member

    Location:
    tucson az
    different strokes, i guess- i much prefer the small faces' organ based r-n-b musical backing to zep's version. but as i said, i do not really dig much heavy blues based hard rock. just not my thing.

    cheers,
    rob
     
  20. extravaganza

    extravaganza Senior Member

    Location:
    San Diego, CA USA
    A friend of mine during college both and I had the same view - great band awful band at the same time. Still very much worth listening to - but Plant's lyrics and vocals were often "endurance listening" for us. (Don't mind him when he isn't doing that high pitched whine - that is what really gets me.)
     
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  21. MusicalHeaven

    MusicalHeaven Well-Known Member

    One thing that's telling is that this kind of conflict doesn't seem to happen with many other artists. There's something unique about them in that regard.
     
  22. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    Well, one thing that Small Faces and Zep had in common was management of questionable integrity. During the Decca year(s) SF were managed by Don Arden, and Zep had Peter Grant. Scumbags the both of them. I choose to blame the managers for these lapses in music business ethics.
     
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  23. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Page and John Paul Jones were music industry vets, not babes in the woods, when Zeppelin began. I don't think "blame it all on Peter Grant" makes much sense, particularly when the band hired Grant to begin with. I'm sure Page knew exactly what he was getting when he hired Grant, particularly since Grant had been the Yardbirds' road manager in '67/'68.

    And isn't "music business ethics" an oxymoron to begin with?
     
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  24. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    Being music industry vets doesn't mean they were involved in any of the paperwork.

    But yes, even hiring Grant implies a certain level of consent for underhanded dealings.
     
  25. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    So the band delivered the tapes to Grant, and Grant just randomly decided which songs to credit to Page, which songs to credits to Page/Plant, which songs to credit to Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham, etc.? Sorry, I don't buy that.

    Besides the issue of songwriting credits, what business dealings of Grant's were underhanded? Many would say that his only crime was fighting as hard as he could for his clients, and squeezing the maximum dollars possible out of promoters and record companies, whereas, in the past, promoters and record companies had squeezed the maximum dollars possible out of artists.
     
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