Conflicted about Zep?

Thanks for a nice response. couldn't agree more for the most part
Forget technical matters considered in a vacuum. By the way, I totally agree about the
little solo in the middle of Stairway To Heaven. Hardly earth shattering, but
very nice indeed. Not only does it not ruin the track for me, it is an essential part
of why I like the track (and yes, I still do ). Totally agree. And I'm sure there are lots more
Page moments like that. But there are also a lot of Page moments that spoil these many of these
tracks for me. I could list some specifically if you like. But my intent here is not to try to
convince anyone. As the op I'm just trying to give additional clarification as to why I even started
the thread. I don't just like Zep a little, with some misgivings.

In some ways I REALLY LIKE Zep, while in other ways,
often in the same track, I REALLY DON'T.
hence, "conflicted"

 

I love them plain and simple. A wonderful band. There entire library brings me great joy.
Maybe the best rock band of all time. I like the way they stretch it out sometimes.
Sometimes they were off live but there albums still have me tapping my toes all these years later.

 

I don't know, but it sure gave me a chuckle.

 

I get where you're coming from here, and on some level share your conflict, but I absolutely LOVE Page's awful moments. He was taking chances, going for the danger. To me that's part of the essence of rock. I guess I don't mind the sloppiness either, heck I love The Kinks and Neil Young too.

Page does lose me with the "Heartbreaker" solo break though, it's just broken.

 

That solo influenced many guitar players, though, including Steve Vai.

 

I have to agree that Page, while a brilliant composer of guitar parts, the master of the rock riff, and of layered guitar arrangements, is not a great soloist. He's definitely recorded some fine solos here and there in studio setting where perhaps they were in part more thought out, almost through composed instead of improvised, I dunno. I particularly like the "Since I've Been Loving You" solo. But most of the solos are a lot of alternating twiddling and sustained bent notes, almost a formula more than a style, that don't have much musical content and don't go much of anywhere -- kind of the musical equivalent of running in place. He's a brilliant guitar player and writer, no doubt, soloist, not so much.

 

I love a lot of their music, even got to see them live twice....as a 12 y.o. in 1969, then again in '71.

I'm conflicted in that I don't really like Physical Graffiti, and tons of Zep fans consider it their best. Don't care for ITTOD either. I have about 200 live and outtake bootlegs of theirs, I went on a ridiculous collecting spree back in the early-mid 2000s, and some of their shows are really great, and many are really bad.

I can't stand how lots of hardcore Zep fans will say...even on a bad day they're better than anyone else ! B.S. !!!!

That's my biggest conflict....the band/fans.

 

I don't know about that. Page at the end of The Rain Song in The Song Remains the Same movie is unreal. One of the greatest guitar performances ever!

 

I'm trying to remember the exact words, but one reviewer talked about Led Zep II. He basically said that Page had ALL the toys and used them on the album. I never saw Zeppelin live, but saw Page/Plant twice and JPJ once(Zooma). For the Plant/Page shows, I felt the magic. At some points, I couldn't help but imagine how it would have been to see Bonzo and Jones up there with them. Plant once said that in the studio, Bonzo had a double drum kit set up. John went to the bathroom and he moved the extra drum. Plant said that he could do more with one foot than most could do with two.

The Zooma show - my appreciation for Jones' talent went up immensely. Was blown away by his show a totally "non vocal" one. Meeting him on the street outside of HOB after the show was the icing on the cake.

 

A friend of mine is a HUGE Zep Maniac and probably has every show they have "recorded". Some are good, some.......uh.......not so good. Had the guides(books) the whole shooting match. I remember hearing stuff from the final tour in Europe. One of the dealers had a few players lined up with headphones. Fired one up. The first few moments....fantastic until Plant's voice came in. Painful to hear. I always wonder had I tried to get tickets for the Superdome show(that was cancelled due to Karec's death), what shape Plant's voice would have been in.. Vocals aside, I talked to friends who were heavily into Zeppelin that went to the Baton Rouge 1977 show. They told me it was so loud and distorted, the sound was horrible. Yes, sometimes you CAN be too loud.

 

Zeppelin were meant to be loud, and could NEVER BE "quiet".

That's why they were called Led Zeppelin !

 

I wouldn't discredit them as "talentless", but I've never held them on the same pedestal that many fans do.

Led Zeppelin II... I can't agree with the common sentiment of it being their best record. IV will always be the better album to me.

They definitely are an album band, their songs fit within the context of the albums they came from. Which is why I've never cared for any of their compilations.

At the end of the day I think it's Bonham's drumming (and how is was often recorded) that draws people in, and I'm not just saying that because of his untimely demise. Some of those drum parts were very ahead of their time.

 

You and I probably have very different ideas about what constitutes a great instrumental solo.

FWIW, I never liked that movie -- kind of exhibit A in the case against LZ, the first major evidence of LZ as a '70s arena rock band that has descended into self parody both in many of the onstage sequences and the ridiculous fantasy sequences.

 

The self parody was from the knock-off, imitators of LZ.

LZ wrote THE BOOK for others to follow.

LZ was there first !

 

It can't be SELF-parody if someone else is parodying you! I don't think LZ intended The Song Remains the Same as self-parody, but to me it comes off like it and did from the start.

I remember years ago seeing Wayne Newton on the Arsenio Hall show, and he gave this over the top, super cheesey, ultimate Wayne Newton performance of "MacArthur Park" complete with a thunderous dramatic build up in the arrangement and dancing fountains that he ran his hand through in an affected, overly dramatic manner. It was incredible, if today Will Ferrell performed a parody of an overblown schlocky Vegas stage show he could have given this Newton performance without changing a thing in the production. Well, after the tune was over Newton sat down for an interview with Arsenio and said of his work that the thing he was trying to prevent was becoming a self-parody! I almost did a spit take. That "MacArthur Park" performance had already come off as an enormous self-parody. Either Newtown was a post-modern, ironic performing artist genius; or he completely lacked self-awareness.

I kinda see The Song Remains the Same as something a little similar.

 

Mate, geez you just gotta relax about it and stop over thinking this stuff.
It's ok, you don't have to like every song they recorded.

 

No different than Floyd walking through a volcano in Pompeii.

 

Ha! I wouldn't know about that, I never much cottoned to Floyd and have precious little familiarity w/ the band's output.

 

Thanks for response.
But you are missing my point, for which I will take full responsibility with apologies.
It's not that I hate some tracks and love others. That's the deal with all groups of course.
It's that there are a lot of tracks that I both hate AND love. THAT'S the conflict.
Maybe I should give more examples.
Hm......... take the first album. Take side two. The first track is very nice. Very nice. .
IMO a classic example of their peachy pastoral approach to ballads.
all building up to the chorus ......Which for me falls completely flat, ruining the track.
I really like it and then, with the "A Change Is Gonna Come" chorus, it's just ruined for me. ......
but I'm really frustrated because except for that small bit, I like it a lot. And then they just seem to falter, to blink, right at the climax.
for me this happens A LOT!
Go to the third track. Communication Breakdown. Same thing: Nice little killer riff, classic over the top bombast from Plant.
I'm liking it. all building up, if you can call it that, to, once again, the chorus (Plant screaming "Communication Breakdown")
which for me, once again, falls completely flat. Some kind of change, is required for the chorus, some kind of shift.
Instead he just yells some more and as a result, as a chorus it completely fails, a big fun build up leading to .............nothing.
Zep really seems to use contrasts of various sort better than anyone else in Rock, so when they don't, as in Communication Breakdown, spoiling the track in the process,
it's frustrating and more than a little puzzling to me.
So, there's two songs that I like, for the most part, a lot. Yet, because of some lapse or other they are spoiled for me and I find them unlistenable.
Thus, A lot of my favorite Zep moments and ideas occur in tracks that are, for me, unlistenable, because of some sort of lapse. Now THAT'S frustrating.
If I wasn't a fan, I wouldn't mention it.
What I find wrong with Zep IV is ............ nothing!. And I feel the same about Zep V. You see I really am a fan!

But, I've never had a band where I liked SO MUCH, bits and pieces of tracks that , in their entirety , I can't even get through.
Just to be clear. I've never been conflicted about them live. I've seen them I believe four times, including the S. F. performance from I believe the beginning
of 69. Live I found them absolutely useless. No, I'm talking about the records. Among my friends, most have no use for Zep at all. the rest
love them to pieces. I seem to be the only one who is in both camps. As a result I think about them more than all my friends put together. Like a riddle with
no answer.

 

OK ....... so it occurs in the same song ? ........ bummer !
It really must suck the life out of the listening experience for you.
Usually an album may have a couple of fillers or something which you can skip if you have to, but you're breaking it down to distinct parts of individual songs.
You may have to find another band as continuing down this road will drive you insane.
Maybe Zep just ain't for you and that's ok too remember.

 

I think the OP was born to be a Producer.

"Needs more cowbell"

 

Needs more dragon pants.

 

No conflict for me. They have been my favorite band since hearing IV at age 12 on my friend's roof in '74 when he blasted his older brother's album out the window. Blew my little mind and I've never been the same since!!!!!! Started a love of music that has lasted for a long time.

That said, they were not perfect and were not always consistent on stage or the studio. The comments on this thread from people who are "conflicted" have been very interesting -- even though I think they are insane

One of my favorites but not above criticism.

 

I've been enjoying this thread. I think the OP's initial point was a good one. For me, learning to appreciate Led Zeppelin had a lot to do with accepting certain contradictions.

More than anything else, however, it was about seeing past stereotypes. I went to high school in the early 80s. I wouldn't say that Zep was really popular at my school, but they were VERY popular among those who cared. In my early experience, the kind of people who championed Zeppelin were a breed apart from my own. They almost certainly listened to very few other bands. Other select favorites might have included Sabbath, AC/DC, Van Halen, and often Pink Floyd. Not that there's anything wrong with any of these artists. It's just that I've never related to having such specific tastes. For example, I love a lot of Country music, but I'm not likely to click with someone who ONLY listens to Country.

Anyway, shallow though it may seem, I grew up in a place where liking Led Zeppelin was more than just a musical taste. It was a social signifier. So, for years, I accepted that Led Zeppelin was a good and "important" band, but I never listened to them out of choice. I admit that I was practicing a form of reverse discrimination.

As time went on, I was able to judge the music on its own terms. I eventually realized that a lot of it is pretty wonderful. The first two albums still don't do much for me. It probably doesn't help that, with the exception of Moby Dick, I've heard each one of these tracks countless times.

Perhaps the OP doesn't really want a solution. Maybe he just wants to have the discussion. And that's cool. If it was me, and I was continually conflicted about Zeppelin or any artist, I would do one of two things:

1) Accept that there are enough annoyances to prevent me from every truly appreciating the artist and move on.

2) Gather up all of the songs that I enjoy all the way through and make a compilation or two.

 

A huge component of the reaction that people have to any given kind of music is the reaction they have to that genre's or band's fan base (or, more accurately, what they perceive that genre's fan base, rightly or wrongly, to be). I was into "alternative rock" as a teen, and part of that meant being, or wanting to be, an alternative to the kind of kid that I perceived to like Led Zeppelin. Same deal with Van Halen. It took me well into adulthood to get past my stereotypes about the Led Zeppelin and Van Halen fanbases and come to terms with the fact that I like Led Zeppelin's and Van Halen's music, even if I'm not a guy with a mullet and a Camaro who likes to "parrr-tay" on Saturday night, or whatever stereotype I had of those bands' fanbases when I was a kid. But, yeah, for I long time, I was conflicted about liking Zeppelin for those reasons.