Considering A First Time Tube Roll

The equipment
Amp:Jolida 202, current stock tubes are, pre-12ax7 Tung-Sol, drive-12at7 Electro-Harmonix, power EL34 Electro-Harmonix,

TT: Technics SL1200MKII w/ AT440MLa

MC/MM Phono preamplifier: Lehman Black Cube Statment

Speakers: Martin Logan Motion 40

What I like. (Please keep in mind that I am very much still learning as to what I like).
Bass is good could be smoother.
Mid is strong vocals & guitars sound great.
Highs are very nice, sharp clean very little or no sibilance.

What I don't like.
Overall presentation, it just sounds a little closed in.
I think the amp could be much quieter.

What I want.
I want to open the soundstage, wider and deeper, I would like more separation and clean the whole thing up a little, make me go wow.

Many hours of online research has me looking at NOS Amperex BugleBoy matched pairs tubes for the Pre & drive (I thought that the NOS Telefunken may be just a little over the top, but then again I am only reading about them). Paired with new Gold Lion KT77 quad for the power tubes.

I am also considering upgrading the TT cartridge to a MC AT33EV.

Please let me thank you for putting up with my newbyness, I am learning as I go here (with much help from all of you). One thing I have learned is that I constantly want more from my system, I assume that i'm not alone here. Just what did I get myself into, I love it.

Always happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you again for all your help.

Cheers!
__________________

 

Hey man! Welcome to the forum!

Sounds like you have a pretty good idea what you want - I can't say I know anything about the gear necessarily but do believe that Gold Lions represent excellent value. I had a McIntosh C220 preamp, swapped out the stock tubes for some used/tested good Telefunken ribbed plates, then got some Tesla E83CCs NOS 1971 or so, then some Gold Lions (premium version with gold pins). All sounded remarkably similar to my ears, and I actually thought the GLs sounded the best. The stock tubes were some kind of Chinese ones (branded McIntosh, of course) but were 'known' not to be the best sounding. They've since 'upgraded' to better ones (TungSols? or something, likely still with McIntosh labels). The sound got much more open and detailed (which the stock tubes lacked) while still remaining musical.

I bet the GLs will make a difference ... of course can't know for sure, but bet they sound better than the stock tubes. Hmmmm ... my Bottlehead 300B amps have 12AT7 drivers, and in my quest for more detail, I went with some NOS Siemens & Halske tubes ca. 1970 or something ... they did add a desirable 'crispness' to the sound that I liked. Now that I have a Parasound P 7 (SS) preamp which is cleaner still than the C220, I may dial the amp drivers back a little (maybe some GLs?). Maybe the S&Hs would be too much of a good thing (highs might go over the edge a bit) in your system tho.

I don't think you could go wrong just getting all GLs! but of course there are 100s of variations out there to try.

Only way to know is to try in your system, unless someone has some/all of the same components. I have no clue about the cart ...

I presume you've researched about the KT77 being a drop in replacement in the Jolida? May be worth corresponding with them about it. I'm not really familiar with that line of tubes. I've had EL84 and now 300B based amps, that's all.

Good luck and happy listening!

 

PS: sure seems like the KT77s are a drop in and at least the 'Tube Store' likes them http://www.thetubestore.com/Shop-by-Amp/Jolida-JD-202A/Jolida-JD-202A-Premium-Package ...
http://www.thetubestore.com/Genalex-Gold-Lion-KT77 the Tube Store seems to lean toward sound in guitar amps etc. rather than in hi fi, I guess hi fi is more open and esoteric ...

 

Golden Lion KT77s are my favorite new production tube.

In my experience Amperex are brighter and a little harder sounding then Teles. In a Jolida I'd probably go for RCA, Raytheon, or Sylvana Black Plates. In that order.

 

Based on the tubes you're using -- which are all made by the same company, New Sensor, and, I believe at the same Russian factory -- the sound you're hearing is most likely the sound of the circuit more than the sound of the tubes.

The only other currently in production true EL34 pentode I think is the Shuguang EL34. All the rest of the in-production EL34 types that will sub are beam tetrodes -- 6CA7's and KT77s. I think the New Sensor-made Gold Lion KT77 is a big step up from the New Sensor-made ElectroHarmonix EL34 (in truth I think almost anything is better than the EH EL34 which I always thought was bright and thin and hard-edged). When switching from EL34 pentodes to a beam tetrode like that KT77 you tend to get cleaner, more open, more detailed sound -- which sounds like a more open sound is what you're looking for -- but also a kind of brighter sound, with tighter bass, but what sometimes might sound like lighter bass, but you loose the warm, tactile midrange timbres and creaminess of a great EL34. That said, the ElectroHarmoix EL34 isn't a particularly smooth, rich, creamy EL34 to begin with. Unfortunately to get that classic sound today, euphonic though it might be, you have to go with old production tubes -- the Blackburn Mullards really are great at delivering that sound but a quad will cost you as much as the amp, if you can even find 'em. Pre-JJ Teslas are really good too; though also hard to come by. But it sounds like you're not looking for that classic creamy mid-heavy EL34 sound anyway, so try the New Sensor Gold Lion KT77s (which also happen to be, in my experience, one of the lower self-noise power tubes I've ever heard from New Sensor).

I don't have enough experience with new production preamp tubes to offer advice other than to say that old production used-tested-good 12ax7s are plentiful and NOS 12at7s are relatively cheap (you can get Mullards and RCAs and original Tung Sols -- not New Sensor-made Tung Sols just using the old brand nam -- for $30-$40)....worth trying some old stock, new or used, on some of these depending on how much you want to spend and how many tubes you need.

 

I think that you'd benefit more by going to the higher powered 302 model. It has the same tube compliment and so retains much of the character that you like but improves on control and clarity, especially in the more difficult bass region. As Rick58 mentions, you can try the Gold Lion tubes for the pre-section as a bit more open sounding choice there. The Tung-Sol is very good for its clarity and drive but can sound a bit more sterile. I am not sure how much that you can squeeze out of a pair of the KT77 in the 202 amplifier due to its transformers. The 302 will allow you to get some more power there and the 502 is already outfitted with the KT88 tubes. That will open and clean everything up by comparison to the 202/302. You should also be able to run the KT120 in that amp although I haven't tried it myself. At that point, I just go to the Rogue Audio Cronus Magnum amp. My point is that tube changes will only provide subtle changes in your current amp as it is limited in its power envelope by its transformers. It just has a more compressed sound than the other amps.
-Bill

 

Been playing with tubes for 26 years -

Good NOS 12AT7s are considerably cheaper than their 12AX7 counterparts. If on a budget, I would start there, buying a pair of (vintage) Tungols, RCAs, Mullards, Raytheon, or etc etc - lots of options here. This was, for example, a big step-up in a Yaqin tube amplifier.

New production 12AX7s - not a big fan of any of them though the Gold Lion may be the top of the bunch - a touch sizzly and less depth than vintage Mullards. Never heard the Psvane 12AX7s - though I'm curious about them since I had good luck with their 5881 tubes. Short-plate Mullard 12AX7s are still affordable (compared to the older long plates), and, again if on a budget, I would check out RCA, Rogers, Raytheon, Westinghouse (often relabeled RCAs), Tungsol, and even - gah - GE. Euro tubes are usually a bit pricier.

EL34s - I've used and abused several pairs of Shuguang EL34s - try 500VDC and 60mA each - they are "sort of" the poor man's Mullards - sound warm and a touched rolled-off on top. Best part - they are dirt cheap. Worst part? Not the most detailed/textured sound compared to the old stuff. Agree on what was said above - the slim-bottle EH EL34s I had in a Dynaco 70 were very brittle and bright sounding. I have a personal stash of Mullards XF2s and even a pair of 1950s Philips brown base EL34s that I use in my single-ended amps. The latter are among the best output tubes I've ever heard but I wouldn't even dream of getting a matched quad of them unless they were going into something very special, like a Marantz 8B.

 

This.

I had the 202A. Sent it to Parts Connexions for a mod, upgraded the tubes to NOS. I still sold it afterwards.

I'd buy a PrimLuna ProLogue 2. They can be had used for a just a bit over $1000. It will have all that you're missing and you'll get a much better amp. It sounds really good.

 

Probably not a good idea at all. The Jolida runs them at 40ma each, as they ship, and that is a bit on the high side side IME. That high of a bias will will shorten tube life considerably.
-Bill

 

Our host started a topic a while back about how each tube sounds....pretty long but lots of great info in there.

http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...-tubes-to-buy-heres-a-good-tone-chart.288716/

 

I wouldn't recommend that either - I'm just saying the Shuguang tubes are tougher than people give them credit for. Ran them that way - factory bias! - in a pair of Eico HF-60s.

 

Contact KevinUpscale Audio

 

The Eico HF-60 was spec'd with a 115v primary... Even then, it thrashed the then plentiful and affordable Mullard EL34 tubes. While the average wall voltage today is only about 5% over the original design spec, it's not a good plan today to over bias with the price of tubes and the risk of damage to an amplifier from a catastrophic tube failure.

-Bill

 

How large is your room and where are the speakers placed within the room?

Far greater gains can be had by speaker placement than dropping in new tubes.

 

My ol' Eicos weren't exactly stock - additional choke - and lower value for the first capacitor - to bring the B+ in line with stock values. Amazing how hard that amplifier - stock bias - would chew through tubes. Previous owner told me about putting in a quad of NOS Mullard XF2s and then have to replace them only a year later since they were only testing at 20-30%. Of course he listened to music 8-10 hours a day, but still that's some hard abuse.

These days designers pull way back on the current - which is a tube lifesaver - but I often wonder if it sounds as good as the "destructo" levels of bias. Ah well - not going to lose any sleep over it - I've heard good amps that are almost class B for most of their power range.

 

I found with my Dynaco ST-70 that the sound became more "holographic," for lack of a better word, with a matched quad of SED Winged C's (EL34 power tubes). They are out of production now but not ridiculously expensive. Worth considering.

 

What on earth will we do when the NOS stuff ultimately runs out?