Converting Red-Book and Hi-Rez files to DSD.Any possible benefits?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by EddieVanHalen, Nov 20, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. EddieVanHalen

    EddieVanHalen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I've been seen on this forums and other websites some D/A converters that convert PCM to DSD argumenting that it can extract the most of PCM overcoming the problems involved with direct PCM conversion with multi-bit D/A converters, 'though most, but not all, seem to be Delta-Sigma designs, very similar in concept to DSD.
    Does it mean if I rip some of my CD's or some of my Hi-Rez audio files (ranging from 96/24 to 192/24) and then convert them to DSD with Weiss Saracon (which I've been using for over two years, so I know quite well how to do the convertion, what modulator use depending of the kind of music, if adding dither or not...) and then play those converted files on my Pioner SC LX-76 (European model, it has an equivalent in the US as parte of the Elite Series) Which can play DSD files natively without converting to PCM on an USB flash drive, will I may any kind of sonic improvement? Weiss Saracon is a great sample/standards converter, so I guess if I sound quality is not improved al these PCM2DSD D/A converters is just pure marketing and a rip off.
     
  2. ServingTheMusic

    ServingTheMusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    SoCal
    Yes, a big benefit....to DAC manufacturers....it helps them move more boxes.o_O
     
  3. SBurke

    SBurke Nostalgia Junkie

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    Are there really problems with direct PCM conversion? If so, what are they?
     
  4. EddieVanHalen

    EddieVanHalen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I think there are, is well known that DSD is more easy to convert back to analog, keep in mind all the filters PCM uses for D2A conversion. But this is all theory, real life testing is what it counts.
     
  5. ElvisCaprice

    ElvisCaprice Forum Resident

    Location:
    Jaco, Costa Rica
    "Converting Red-Book and Hi-Rez files to DSD.Any possible benefits?"

    None what so ever. This latest fad of converting PCM to DSD is just plain silly in my book. A good native PCM dac should outshine any converting dac to DSD. Let alone extreme upsampling.
     
    HAmmer likes this.
  6. EddieVanHalen

    EddieVanHalen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    So, if my Pioneer Receiver upsamples (it can de defeated) all PCM signals to 192 Khz/32 bits, I should better stick with it and forget about converting to DSD.
     
  7. TommyTunes

    TommyTunes Senior Member

    I recently did two things, first I switched my Esoteric K1 to convert to DSD for Cd playback and took an XRCD and using Audiogate converted to 5.6 DSD. In both instances friends have agreed that it made a noticeable improvement. Personally I haven't listened to the file, I loaded it on my friends AK240, it's his favorite album and he keeps raving about it, so I guess it works. I tried it based on Arnie Nudell describing that he does this with CD's in a review that appeared in TAS.
    My suggestion is if you have a DSD DAC give it a try Audiogate can be downloaded free.
     
    HAmmer likes this.
  8. onlyconnect

    onlyconnect The prose and the passion

    Location:
    Winchester, UK
    Does DSD have "a sound" or is it transparent? If it has a sound, and you like it, then there could be a benefit to you in converting another format to DSD. If it is transparent then it is pointless, since it cannot improve on the source.

    Tim
     
  9. Davey

    Davey NP: Portishead ~ Portishead (1997)

    Location:
    SF Bay Area, USA
    The "source" in this case is a digital file. It doesn't have a "sound" until converted to analog. If converting first to DSD results in a better sounding analog output with your equipment, who's to say which format (or playback hardware for that matter) is transparent or not. Most of us never get to hear the real source.
     
  10. EddieVanHalen

    EddieVanHalen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I have converted several albums of different musical styles, ranging from some red books and I like what I hear, two examples, Phil Collins No Jacket Required and ...But Seriously (which I love mastering by Mr. Hoffman for Audio Fidelity) sound wonderful (both are Hoffman's masterings for AF),Phil Collin's voice has a presence and a separation from the other instruments I had never heard before on those recordings. But moving to Hi-Rez as a source, the 6 first Van Halen's albums at 192/24 from HDTracks sound better in their original PCM form. Maybe 192 not being an even multiple of 44.1 Khz (DSD as used on SACD is 44.1x64) doesn't convert as well as 44.1 Khz or 88.1 Khz. But for thests I've done 44.1/16 do sounds better for me in my set up.
     
  11. EddieVanHalen

    EddieVanHalen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I've converted the soundtrack for the movie Gattaca (from 1997, minimalistic music by Michael Nyman) to DSD using Weiss Saracon, 10th order filter, -1 dB attenuation and dither and it sounds better than ever.
     
  12. ElvisCaprice

    ElvisCaprice Forum Resident

    Location:
    Jaco, Costa Rica
    If a PCM digital soundtrack sounds better after converting to DSD, what does that say about the sound quality of your native PCM dac?
     
  13. Black Elk

    Black Elk Music Lover

    Location:
    Bay Area, U.S.A.
    EvH,

    Any possible benefit to such a conversion? The answer could be yes, no, or makes things worse. As you point out, the vast majority of DACs these days are sigma-delta based, so your PCM files are going to get changed whether you like it or not. So, there are two issues:

    1. what form of SDM does the converter use?
    2. where is the better format converter? External to DAC or on-board?

    Ideally, you would feed the DAC the format it uses internally. Only some SDM converters are actually true 1-bit designs, though. Another problem is that there is often NOT an input for the internal format, you can either feed the device PCM at the standard rates or DSD. So, for example, if you change to DSD64 and the internal format is 3-bit, 256 Fs, then the data will get changed again!

    The performance to price ratio of modern DAC chips used in most of the equipment listeners are using is incredibly high, but one has to remember that there is strong competition among chip manufacturers, limits to what you can put in a certain piece of silicon for a given price, etc. Most DAC chips provide an 8 Fs PCM input, for example, to allow designers to do their own intermediate step up and digital filtering. Why do this if the on-board routines are optimum? So, it should be obvious that there is the potential to improve the quality of conversion with a dedicated tool, and Saracon certainly fits that bill (being used extensively on PCM-to-SACD and SACD-to-PCM projects in studios).

    At the end of the day, it will all come down to your playback equipment and listening preferences. What works for you, might not work for someone else.
     
  14. EddieVanHalen

    EddieVanHalen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    The D/A converter is the same, the one built in in my 2012 Pioneer SC-LX76 (it cost me 1895 €, around 2350 $, it was also sold in the US as part of the ELITE series with a different reference number), and I must say that it excells (for the price, is a THX Select 2, 7.1 Receiver) with both Hi-Rez files, like the Van Halen David Lee Roth era at 192/24, or the Jurassic Park soundtrack at 96/24 and SACDs as well, as the E.T. soundtrack, Carole King's Tapestry, The Film Music Of Jerry Goldsmith (a native DSD recording) or Boston S/T just to name a few of different musical styles.
    In my opinion if this debate is wortless, so must be many of the SACD releases as the've past by some kind of PCM editing prior to DSD conversion for SACD authoring.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine