Court Rules Plant, Page Must Face "Stairway to Heaven" Jury Trial/ Decision*

That's exactly what Zep is trying to claim. The judge did not fully agree with Zep's argument, but did agree that the Defense would be allowed to bring it up at trial.

There are several witnesses who can testify that "Taurus" was performed before Randy California signed the "work for hire" contract with Hollenbeck Music. But wouldn't the Defense be able to argue that there's no proof that the version played in early 1967 is the same song that was copyrighted?

 

That's one reason why the judge wants the copyrighted song in sheet music form, I would presume.

 

I had previously posted a Taurus copyright entry for 1967, but that one did not make sense given the name and publishing company. I spent more time learning about the for-hire aspect and it was to Hollenbeck Music, and it seemed this would have been entered in 1968 and so I found:

TAURUS; m. Randy California. 1 p.
Appl. ti.; Tauras. © Hollenbeck
Music Co.; 5Feb68; EU35222

Page 643 here or an easier direct excerpt here

An excerpt of the Exclusive Songwriter's And Composer's Agreement he entered into in 1967 at the age of 16 is here

 

This is an old one, but fleshes out the back story:

Stairway to Heaven: The Song Remains Pretty Similar »

 

For Led Zeppelin, 1968 was a big year. The band recorded its first album and flew to the U.S. to promote it with a series of shows. The day after Christmas, it played its first concert in America at the Denver Auditorium Arena. Led Zeppelin opened for Spirit.

Mark Andes, Spirit’s founding bassist, says he believes the members of Led Zeppelin heard Taurus that day, beginning a process that would lead to its appropriation for Stairway. Taurus was a fixture of Spirit’s set at the time. “It was such a pretty moment, and it would typically come after a big forceful number and always got a good response,” Andes says at his home in a Houston suburb, where his music room is lined with framed gold records, many from the decade he later spent with the band Heart. “They would have seen it in that context.”

The formulation is ambiguous: is it documented that Spirit played "Taurus" as part of their show on that day?

 

That's one thing I found interesting, too.

 

Come to think of it, why do you say "ambiguous "? There isn't anything uncertain about Mark Andes' statement.

I guess I don't know what you mean by "formulation ".

 

Man, you guys are really into this lol.

 

I was referring to this formulation: "Mark Andes, Spirit’s founding bassist, says he believes the members of Led Zeppelin heard Taurus that day".

"Believe," first of all, does not imply 100% certainty. Second, what he is saying could either mean a) "I believe we played 'Taurus' that day" or b), "I believe Led Zep stuck around to hear it".

 

I see, though he says " Taurus was a fixture of Spirit’s set at the time. “It was such a pretty moment, and it would typically come after a big forceful number and always got a good response,” Andes says at his home in a Houston suburb, where his music room is lined with framed gold records, many from the decade he later spent with the band Heart. “They would have seen it in that context.”

Which means he's recalling " big forceful number" followed by "pretty moment " which is fairly in the weeds, so to speak!

In any event, I thought it was interesting to find this interview which is poles opposite from the "nobody recalls anything" scenario. Certainly Andes' recollection should be just as valid as Page/Plant's total absence of recall.

Or something like that!

(Sorry for confusion on italics. I can't make it stop.)

 

The 2014 article states that "Taurus" was "a fixture" in Spirit's live set, but Jay Ferguson stated in his 2016 deposition that the song "was not played religiously". There's no evidence that the song was played at any of the concerts where Zep could have had access to the band.

 

There is also reason to question Andes' memory, as he has stated (paraphrasing from memory) that he was hanging out with Zeppelin on their private jet the night of one of those Spirit/Zeppelin crossovers... but Zeppelin didn't have a jet until 1973. Stuff like that would undermine the veracity of his recalling of events.

 

Yeah, I don't think either side of these faded recollections are going to count for much.

 

Right, as mentioned before, there are only two documented live performances of "Taurus" in the relevant period, and it would be a massive coincidence if one of those happened to be at the Denver gig.

 

I still appreciate Stairway greatly, but there's little doubt that Page lifted the intro from "Taurus" as a major inspiration and added some variation to it like many covers would. Stairway ends up in different places and it's a pretty long track, but court stuff aside, I will admit that I can't imagine anyone who was objective hearing "Taurus" and then the opening of "Stairway" and not connecting the dots there.

People can argue all day long that a descending minor progression like that is common and had happened many times before, but it's obvious where it came from in this case and it traces right to a pretty specific approach in "Taurus." I guess the decision will come down to whether that obvious influence should constitute a writing credit to California. I've felt that it shouldn't, but I cannot say I would feel it totally unreasonable if a jury didn't hear it that way.

 

Lawyering about Zeppelin is like dancing about astrophysics.

 

That's it, in a nutshell .

 

So we can blame Randy California for STH for being overplayed and clogging up the FM airwaves for the past 40 some years. It's there in the opening Chord Progressions they need to pay the California estate thier dues, after all Zep made plenty of money off that simple chord progression, and it's time they pay it and move on.

 

Hey, buddy, common sense and sensitivity have no place on the Interwebs! Pick a side, dig in and let fly with the tautologies, misunderstood legal jargon and straw dog arguments . . . that's how we get things done in cyber-space!

 

So what if those lyrics became pretty famous? Do you think that it they have sung "Are we an item? Girl, quit playing/We're just friends, what are you saying?/Say there's another and look right in my eyes/My first love broke my heart for the first time" on WLL, the song would have been less successful??
Like I said, not giving credit for lyrics was proved illegal. It's good that they gave credit eventually. But to call them a "cover band" (like many do, based on "lists of songs that Zeppelin plagiarized" that pile together real offenders and not-so-real offenders just to inflate the numbers) and think they are lesser musicians and not so great artists because of those numbers is an act of bad faith, IMO. This was my argument, and I stick to it: no one could have traced the blues origin of a Zep song if not for the one or two old lines thrown in it, so, in a twisted way, it was an act of honesty. (Btw, in 2010 Robert Plant was honored with a star on a music sidewalk in Memphis for his "tireless efforts to preserve the blues")

Again, how many arangements they stole, in your opinion, that took away all their originality factor? I remember only one case.

No, we are not looking at Page's solo work; Zep means the collective effort of four very talented men.
So, the list of offenders is 3 songs long? [even if 1) I don't consider "Bring It On Home" a "blatant plagiarism" at all- they made the mistake of playing a tribute to Sonny Boy Williamson at the beginning of a totally original song, a song that would have remain a hard rock monster and a great live number with or without the "old blues opening" - but by doing so Zep put their perfectly original song on a platter for future allegations, just for the sake of some "old savor". 2) I put "The Lemon Song" in the category of "non-traceable without the lyrics" songs - even if, after becoming aware of the common lyrics, you start to hear the musical influence too]
What do you know... there are, from the same period, at least three hard rock huge hits that borrow musically from other songs (yes, music, not lyrics; if you have doubts, listen to Bombay Calling - "It's a Beautiful Day"; Ricky Nelson - "Summertime" and Astrud Gilberto - "Maria Quiet" (not counting here the classical sources of inspiration).
I don't think Page ever lifted a riff for a Zep song. And because Zep's songs were constructed around the riffs I consider them highly original. And deserve to be among the greats, no matter how virulent the internet campaigns seems to be.

Now that's weird. I knew very well the Bob Dylan's song ("On The Road Again"), so when I checked out "Drop Down Mama" for the first time the similarity grabbed me.
And, yet, you don't hear any big resemblance between "Smoke on the Water" and its predecessors..
It seems that we have irreconcilable hearing differences

 

Wow. We, the zepheads, must be really dense for arguing this on 50+ pages. All the discusions about others possible sources of influence and about how little similarity share Taurus and STH (so little that the plaintiff was suddenly willing to settle when he heard that he will have to PROVE it by comparing the written notes of the two songs) are just crazy talk?
"there's little doubt"; "it's obvious" ...Saying so don't make it true.

 

Please don't get confused. It's obvious to me. I should have clarified this, I guess. Maybe I thought it should be obvious...

Page really liked Spirit and dug their albums. Interviews with him from the time period suggest this to be true.

That he coincidentally came up with an intro to Stairway which was so similar in notes and pacing without ever having heard the song "Taurus" seems a real stretch, IMO.

But again, I'm on Zep's side here. I don't think they should lose this case. Of course, since it impacts my life in no way whether or not somebody else has to pay money in a court case which doesn't involve me and one in which I don't personally know a single person involved, I really can't say I care in the end.

The whole matter is interesting, however. It's a part of rock history.

 

And even if Page did "lift" the intro from "Taurus", I say so what? I still wouldn't see it as actionable given the instances of substantially similar pieces with arpeggiating descending chord progressions going back 400 years. This isn't a case like "Dazed and Confused" or "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You". It's almost like accusing someone of lifting a I-IV-V progression.

 

was just thinking that.
in fact you stopped me reading any more of this...great topic.
open the door i'm done!

 

Thanks for clarifications. Sorry if I've overreacted.

But the bold part still bugs me.
IMO, there can be other sources of inspiration (besides Taurus, which I consider a valid source of inspiration, but not necessarily the one):
1) the guitar part Page recorded for Cartoone at the beginning of the song "Ice Cream Dreams" in 1968 (the notes are there; the pacing is a little faster)
2) the classical piece Granada by Giovanni Batista
(because I saw this comment by Leopoldo888 on the Youtube page of this song:
"I learned to play guiitar while I was a kid (mid sixties and BEFORE Stairway to heaven was even composed), and I used to play the exact arpeggio of Stairway to heaven, çause my professor did the same! That riff is just a NATURAL arpeggio that emerges naturally. And my teacher was not a sophisticated musician, but a man that worked selling groceries and happened to play the guitar (so he was not related with the english music scene). Of course, when I heard Starirway to heaven 4 the first time, I was a LITTLE surprised (but not much, çause is a very common arpeggio, at least here in my country) and not I or my professor claimed that Page had copied nothing. Maybe, page played the same arpeggio when he was learning how to play and he didn't even remembered it..")
(of course, I realize that's just a comment on Youtube, but for me is enough to generate reasonable doubt)