Court Rules Plant, Page Must Face "Stairway to Heaven" Jury Trial/ Decision*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by segue, Apr 11, 2016.

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  1. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    A poll really should be made in advance of this upcoming court extravaganza:

    ■ Page & Plant will be found innocent
    ■ Page & Plant will be found guilty
    ■ Page & Plant will settle out of court

    Hoffmanites, place your bets!
    I've already got my popcorn and beer stein lined up, in case it does end up there. :link: :-popcorn: :cheers:
     
  2. petem1966

    petem1966 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Katy TX
    A
     
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  3. Matthew B.

    Matthew B. Scream Quietly

    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    Well yeah, if you replaced the first verse of "Whole Lotta Love" with the whinier version here, I think it would have been less successful. Plant himself clearly loved all those blues lyrics enough that he had them memorised and borrowed them for himself; it shouldn't be hard to imagine that other listeners might like them too. But since you accept that taking those lyrics was unethical, I don't see the cause for argument here.

    Restricting ourselves to public domain songs, the famous cases are "Black Mountain Side" (from Bert Jansch's "Black Water Side") and "White Summer" (from Davy Graham's "She Moved Thro' the Fair"; Graham's EP credits the arrangement to Karl Denver).

    No, it's not just an "old blues opening." That's a justification Jimmy Page came up with in interviews after the fact. Zeppelin's rip-off of Sonny Boy Williamson II's "Bring It On Home" (from 1963, so not very "old") accounts for more than half of that track. And the shorter edit piece in the middle isn't "totally original" either; it borrows lyrics from, among others, Jimmy Reed.

    I wasn't sure if you were going to cite "Maria Quiet" or the Stooges' "Loose" as the supposed predecessor of "Smoke on the Water," which shows how silly this claim is. Really, listen to "Maria Quiet." There's much less of a resemblance than between "Taurus" and "Stairway to Heaven." No one could possibly compare "Smoke on the Water," or the variation on a James Burton riff in "Black Night," to what Zeppelin did in "Dazed and Confused," "Bring It On Home," or "The Lemon Song." Even "Child in Time" isn't quite on that level of plagiarism, and "Child in Time" is pretty blatant.
     
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  4. zbir

    zbir Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cluj-Napoca, RO
    You must be the only one to give weight to the lyrics in a Zep song (IMHO it's because it suits your argument here and now). It's common knowledge that Plant used his voice as an instrument, not as a vehicle for lyrics (lots of time he was moaning, stuttering, repeating "baby baby"). He sung about hobbits and ferries and the songs are still powerful and sound dangerous.
    And about the commercial success of WLL (and others): Robert Plant memorized those blues lyrics because he loved the blues with passion. But, from what I've read about the times, the blues was under the radar for the young generation (the one that herd to buy the Zep albums in 1969). I'm positive that, for the big majority, those blues references went right over their heads (that's why the plagiarism issue appeared on the table only later).

    Don't forget that White Summer was never part of their "canon" (it was released on a [live] album only in 1990).
    And, again, plagiarism is too much, since the notes are different.

    Oh, yeah, lyrics again. Sorry I didn't mentioned it.
    And I've used the phrase "old blues opening" because it was meant to sound "old" compared to the hard rock part. I know it was from a Sonny Boy Williamson song.
    Again, not sure is the song would have been less successful without the blues part (see Hats Off To Roy Harper to see what level of success can achieve a Zep blues number without the rocker attached)

    So, the Taurus and STH similarity (where they share (? ) a common chord progression that is not even repeated through the entire song) is plagiarism, but It's A Beautiful Day /CIT (where it's about sharing the melodic line), or the other two instances where the main riff was lifted from previous compositions is not "quite on that level" (even if the similarity grabs you from the first listen, unlike most Zep cases). Uhuh. We can agree to disagree here.
     
  5. Sneaky Pete

    Sneaky Pete Flat the 5 and That’s No Jive

    Location:
    NYC USA

    It's not a criminal case, it's a civil action. It's not about guilt or innocence it's about civil liability and financial damages.
     
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  6. Matthew B.

    Matthew B. Scream Quietly

    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    You know, the legal system has given weight to the lyrics in Zeppelin songs too. The band have had some problems there.

    Seriously, I don't understand what you're saying here. When Zeppelin swipe lyrics it doesn't matter, because the music is awesome? That can't be your argument, can it? But it sounds like that's your argument.

    When did I ever say that "Stairway to Heaven" was plagiarism? "Dazed and Confused" and "Bring It On Home" and "The Lemon Song" are plagiarism. "Whole Lotta Love," "How Many More Times," "Boogie with Stu," "Black Mountain Side," "White Summer," those are plagiarism.
     
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  7. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    ROTFL. You're not that naive, are you?
     
  8. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    Pete is right. You are wrong. No two ways about it. No reason to be so proud of your ignorance.
     
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  9. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    Oh there's guilt versus innocence involved Mr. Technical, ignorance aside. Welcome to the real world.
     
  10. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    No, people can be charged with criminal infringement. That is not the case here.
     
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  11. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    ^ Ding dong. Thanks for playing.
     
  12. darling

    darling Senior Member

    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    I had mentioned that before: the copyright is in the sheet music deposited in the copyright office, not in Spirit's recording of that work. The jury doesn't (or shouldn't) get to hear the similarities in the recordings.

    You have to pitch your argument to the level of the jury's musical knowledge. Have a musicologist play the sheet music version of Taurus; show that this figure is not original by playing other compositions using that figure; contrast 'Stairway' with 'Taurus' by point out the differences and embellishments in 'Stairway.'

    It totally could, which is why it shouldn't be allowed. (It wasn't allowed in the Blurred Lines case either).

    They would have (or should have) pulled that before they even filed the suit.

    The sound recording is irrelevant to whether or not they infringed copyright. It could, however show they had access to the copyrighted work by hearing a performance of it. But the jury doesn't need to actually hear the recording in order to determine that.

    Let's suppose Page admits that he heard Taurus, and used it as an inspiration for Stairway. Does that mean that plaintiffs win? No. As my (and plaintiff's attorney's) old law professor points out:

    "plaintiff not only has to establish that the defendant copied from his work, but also that the material that was copied was protected by copyright. Much of “Taurus” — much of every song — isn’t protected by copyright at all, because every song contains a great deal that is not “original” to the song’s author. “Taurus” begins in the key of A minor — but that’s not part of Randy Wolfe’s copyright, of course. So that similarity between “Taurus” and “Stairway” — the fact that they both begin in A minor — is completely irrelevant to the infringement analysis and has to be “filtered out”; even if Led Zeppelin had copied that from “Taurus,” it wouldn’t matter, because it’s not protected by copyright."

    As someone already pointed out, the part in question is centuries old (start at 30 seconds). Page should argue that, to the extent he copied Taurus, the part copied was not protected by copyright.:

     
  13. JoeF.

    JoeF. Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    This classical work sounds closer to "Taurus" than to "Stairway to Heaven."
     
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  14. The Absent-Minded Flaneur

    The Absent-Minded Flaneur Forum Resident

    Location:
    The EU
    Ridiculous! Everyone knows Jimmy stole that riff from Francoise Hardy:

     
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  15. Rojo

    Rojo Forum Resident

    He's not the only one. "Whole Lotta Love" has a great riff but the sex-oriented lyrics are a great match to the music and are catchy.

    However, I would tend to agree with your general view point of lyrics being of lesser relevance on many other Zep tunes and on the fact that Plant's vocal is often used more as an instrument than as a vehicle for lyrics.

    "Stairways" or "Rain Song" would be other exceptions IMO.
     
  16. Scott S.

    Scott S. lead singer for the best indie band on earth

    Location:
    Walmartville PA
  17. gd0

    gd0 Looney Tunes and Merrie Melodies

    Location:
    Golden Gate
    Zep and Spirit should sue Spirit's attorneys for being avaricious ****s.
     
  18. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

  19. John Rhett Thomas

    John Rhett Thomas Forum Resident

    Location:
    Macon, GA, USA
    Right.

    This lawsuit has really shone the light on some interesting new facts for everyone to see:

    • "Taurus" is as much a ripoff as anything plaintiff claims "Stairway" to be.
    • Led Zeppelin took a relatively generic piece of music and made what is generally acknowledged to be the definitive rock epic of all time. Availing themselves of the same piece, Spirit didn't.
    • If Randy California had been nursing a grudge for decades about this, someone who really cared about him should have tried to talk some sense into him.
    • If anyone fed anxiety that he had been ripped off into Randy California, they weren't doing their friend a favor.
    • The Randy California Estate has let themselves be guided into this embarrassment of a lawsuit by someone who should have known better, but decided he'd roll the dice, the only thing at risk being the integrity of Randy California. Shameful.
     
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  20. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
    Giovanni Battista Granata? WTF!@ :help: whoduvknown?
     
  21. Dukes Travels

    Dukes Travels Forum Resident

    No thats Bohemian Rhapsody.
     
  22. Wright

    Wright Forum Resident

    Incidentally co-written by Mick Jones (later of Foreigner), who often crossed paths with Page on the session circuit in the '60s. Just a cool connection - nothing else.
     
  23. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

  24. zelox

    zelox Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SoCal
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  25. Wright

    Wright Forum Resident

    How are these "facts"? Is there any evidence to support it?
     
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