Crosby, Stills & Nash on Classic Records: old vs new

Well, after A/B'ing the Gold with the remaster I can only conclude that they are one in the same. Gastwirt (sp?) is listed on both and I can honestly hear no significant difference between them. They sound good but I guess I'll spring for a 200g too.

I like CSN for the reasons Jim W. listed but I came back to them only recently. I disliked them when I was young and thought the music was commercial fluff.

 

When you write timeless music, it stands up. Sure, CSN's music was written during a particular period in history, speaking to that era's generation, but the basic ideas are universal.
As to whether or not you care for the music itself, that's up to you. Different strokes for different folks don't you know. But for those alive during the late 1960's to early 70's, CSN (and Y) sang songs that are still, as has been pointed out above, relevant today.

 

Now, if youe want to debate the moody blues.... they can be tough to listen to today.

 

Dave,

Thanks.

Jim W.

 

The answer to my own question

Finally I have got myself Classic 200 gm reissue of C,S&N. Know what?

I'm very disappointed with what I heard. Very dull sound that lacks trebles, details and, the most important thing, involvement. Actually I had to force myself to listen to this copy second time. The vinyl quality is superb: no clicks or warp. But who cares if the magic is gone?
I have no idea how 180 gm version sounds but I won't be very surprised if it doesn't differ much from the copy I have. It's hard to believe they've recorded the master tape this way.
My experience shows you often miss than hit when you play this LP reissue game.
On the better side, I have received CCR Pendulum AP re LP and compared it to the Fantasy US original. What an improvement! AP copy sounds warm, has body and details, nice soundstage. Excellent job! Thanks, Steve!

 

After reading this and other threads regarding Classic Records I am now convinced my misgivings about their quality are correct.

I don't know about anyone else here but I can't be wasting my time/money returning merchandise until I get a good product. Does the buyer have to shoulder all the shipping costs to eventually get a good copy?

I have always bought Classics directly from them and have received some noisy vinyl which I never thought they'd be willing to exchange, so I have given up on them.

Is their business so good they can accept shipping out poor quality units or do they readily accept returns and absorb the shipping costs.
I would think they would rather tighten up quality control and minimize returns/exchanges and the bad press that accompanies same.

 

I have it and I do like it.

I spent years trying to chase down a good LP copy (this before Classic existed). I have had several fabulous side one's and horrible side twos, and a couple of pretty good both sides, but never found a fab. side one WITH a fab side two.

The Atlantic gold CD comes close to the fab side 1 LPs, just a bit dull, and of course bests them on side 2. I turn up the treble. So shoot me.

 

In the same way that we suspend disbelief when reading a novel, I think we suspend judgement often when listening to music, particularly older recordings that we used to love. I feel the same way about a *lot* of the music I like - Jethro Tull, The Beatles, ridiculous songs from the 1950s, Motown, Pink Floyd, Moody Blues. Even Beethoven. I mean the lyrical content for the 9th is just way over the top if you ask me. Or Mahler's songs - I'm glad they are in German so I don't have to understand the lyrics when I'm hearing them. Artists always tend to take themselves too seriously, I think it's an occupational hazard.

 

I just saw them in concert last week and David Crosby dealt with this very question on stage. He said some of their songs are still relevant and some not. For example, he felt Nash's "Military Madness" certainly could apply to the current day, while his own "Almost Cut My Hair" doesn't hold up as he pointed to his greatly receeding hairline. Got a huge laugh from the crowd.

BTW, great show to a sold out crowd in Clearwater, FL

Jay N.

 

If you have a tick free 180GM copy, keep it!!!! 35% of the titles I get from this label have ticks that should not be there for the $$. Once a pristine copy is achieved, keep it!!!!

I could not agree more, I bought the new Zep box (I have the 180 grams but wanted the 45 and plan to give the 180's to a relative) and have returned two of them twice and still do not have a clean copy.

With respect to the Zeps the 200's (if clean) sound better, but you have to adjust your VTA from the 180's to get the most out of them.

 

Re: The answer to my own question

Sanfi4u,

Sounds like a VTA issue with your arm/cartridge. 200G is much thicker than most standard records. I'd raise your arm a little, and I bet your "trebles" and details snap back into focus.

Cheers,

Tom

 

He's right about that. I'll bet this generation really has no idea what that one is all about, or why the subject of haircuts was a big deal. I mean a *really* big deal. Guess you had to be there. Hint: It's not about fashion.

 

We know they are goons, but they're OUR goons.

 

Re: Re: The answer to my own question

Thanks for the hint, Tom. I thought about that. Actually it could be the case. But I own Nottingham Analogue Spacedeck with Spacearm. If you ever saw this combo you'll easily understand why I hate changing VTA from LP to LP. It's easier for me to stop buying 200 gm vinyl.
On the other hand, I have received Norah Jones Classic 200 gm LP and it sounds awesome. I love the sound! (I'm not talking about the music. IMO, she deserves all that Grammy Awards) How could it be if it's just a VTA problem? I'm confused.
By the way, along with C,S&N I have the same problem with David Crosby "If I could only remember my name" Classic LP. The same problem with the sound. That makes me think that most of the problem depends on record (reissue) quality and only then comes VTA. But due to complexity of VTA changing procedure I'm not ready to do it. At least now. If anybody with different gear can do this exercise and share the results - I'd appreciate it a lot.

Regards - Sergei.

 

Funny you mention this as Michael has been saying for a while that the remastered Yes: Fragile is the same as the Atlantic Gold CD. What's the catalog number/label on the CS&N that's the same? I really gotta find these 2.

You're most welcome James.

 

Sergei, I have VPI JMW Memorial 12.5, so changing the VTA is a easy as turning a knob. I do not change for every record but I do adjust it if I have a record that I think the VTA may be wrong for. I definitely hear a difference between the CR 180's and 200's with VTA adjustment.

 

Re: Re: Re: The answer to my own question

I have the same table with an OL silver arm. I've thought about just removing the mat for the thicker pressings, but haven't tried it yet.

Jay N.

 

Wow, warps, ticks, I didnt realize how lucky I was. My 180g pressing is great all around.

 

Mine too. I've more or less given up on Classic, but I'm glad I grabbed this one.

 

This is true; I was and still am VERY happy about my Classic Recs of CSN, 180g. To be honest, I have a few 200g QUIEX pressings, and they're not as good as previous 180g's.

Classic Recs has been low in the news, only the expensive Dylan sets and the reissue of BOTW and Zed Lepplin.

 

Re: Re: Re: The answer to my own question

How about a simple experiment: Take a record that sounds good to you, then put another disk or two under it, thus effectively changing the VTA. Now does it sound bad the same way the CSN disk does?

(With the exception of some very old LPs and the new Classics that are specially pressed without the T-rim or "Gruve-guard" to mimic those old ones, there is nothing to fear about carefully placing one disk on top of another, since the rim and label area is raised so the surfaces don't make contact.)

It's not a perfect experiment, of course, since the added records will change other things, but it might give you a better idea of whether VTA is the real problem.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: The answer to my own question

Right, removing the mat. That's what I thought to myself after sending my response. I hope to try it today. Thanks for the advice.

 

Sanfi,

Let me know how that works.

Jay

 

I guess I got lucky with the 200g it has no pops or surface noise. And Classic does a great job with their album covers. The vinyl sounds good, I played it with and without the mat but I couldn't hear a difference on my modest rig.

Compared to the CD though, the vinyl sounds dark and muddy. The CD is brighter and the instruments sound more forward and distinct to me.

gold - 82522
silver - 82651

 

Jay, here it is. I finally found some time to do the test. First I took the foam mat away from my NA Spacedeck TT. It expected it to be too much of decrease. Yes, C,S&N Classic LP sounds even worse with this arrangement.

Then I put one more 200 gm LP underneath the C,S & N. You know what? It started to sound way better! More trebles and details appeared. Now guitar is guitar, Hammond is Hammond, drums are drums. Now I know the reason of many praises. This way it sounds like a very good reissue. A little bit sterile to my taste. But instrumental part is almost perfect. But I still have problems with the voices. It sounds as if they recorded voices on a different track, rolled off the highs and then overdubbed them on the instrumental track.I need to find orig. US press to clear this up.

I made the same experiment with the recent Norah Jones Classic 200 gm LP. Placed on another 200 gm LP (no mat)it sounds harsh and unnatural. The best result is provided when the mat is in place.
I repeated all the procedures with mid 50s 200 gm Bach/Paganini Russian LP. The same result.
This magic in the fiddle sound disappears when no mat or second LP underneath is used.

Resuming we have very strange thing: most of Classic 200 gm reissues sound good with a standard VTA on a TT. But few of them (add Crosby If I could only remember my name Classic re, I believe it was the same problem, didn't try this one yet) sound dull and unnatural until VTA is adjusted. I know VTA always matter. But due to some reason most of 180/200 gm reissues seem play well with a standard VTA (in other words are not that VTA sensitive), but for a few of them VTA adjustment is needed.

Changing VTA on a NA Spacearm is a hard job. So, I recommend to all of the Spacedeck/Spacearm lovers just put one more 200 gm LP on the plate instead of the standard mat. Only fellows owning precise VTA mechanism on their tone arms can tell us how optimal this solution is. Anyway it works.

Any other experience?

BTW sorry for the obvious off-topic here. But we have started in this thread. Hope it doesn't hurt much.