Crosley question

Look at it this way Classic - The jump from Crosley to AT is a hell of a lot bigger than any between the AT & the 1200, plus the AT has the 78rpm facility the OP mentioned.

I lived with the AT for a long while, and never felt short changed on it. I even did a (not extensive admittedly) side by side with a 1200 - using the same cartridge/phono/amp/speakers thanks to headshell swappage. I'd - just - give the 1200 the edge on propulsive music thanks to the great bass, but other than that, it was too close to call, and not worth the outlay for slightly better. It took me going up to a Michell to get a significant improvement everywhere.

I'm not really disputing that there are some real corkers out there (including the 1200) - but the OP is using a Crosley, is new to vinyl replay, isn't particularly flush budget-wise and stated a 78rpm facility. I reckon the AT - after extended personal experience - fits their bill in the overall picture.

 

RE: The LP120 SQ. I own one and it does have a bit of a "digital" sound to it, best way to describe it when I compare it to an old Technics like my SL-3200. It's noticeable and even when not using its phono stage as the system board is setup where you still go through those capacitors if the stage is turned off.

A few forum members here have done surgery on the LP120 where they've pulled out the board and run RCA cables / a new ground directly out of the TT, and have reported improved SQ. So that's an option if you don't mind voiding your warranty.

I haven't done this yet, but if I give my daughter one of my SL-3200's I might take the LP120 back and do the same surgery. Just for the ability to play 78rpm which I don't have right now.

 

I highly suggest that the OP get the Audio Technica LP120, especially if he's on a tight budget. The improvement over his Crosley will be HUGE. It's not the be-all, end-all, turntable. But it can serve him faithfully for many years...especially if he's willing to make a minor modification or two:

1. After one's budget increases, get a nicer cartridge for the turntable...even if it's just a jump up to the modestly priced Shure M97xE or something in the $80-$120 price range. (There are countless threads about cartridges here that one can review.) And with the LP120 allowing rapid interchanging of headshells (the part that hold the cartridge), the OP can mount a couple of different cartridges in different headshells (such a dedicated 78rpm cartridge) and be able to make fast switches (allowing also for necessary adjustments to tracking force and tone arm height).

2. The built-in phono preamp has been identified as the main weakness of the LP120. Still, it a huge jump over the Crosley, so it will suffice for now. Down the road, however, the OP will likely want to buy a better preamp and stop using the one in the LP120. While the LP120 has a bypass switch, users of the LP120 have reported that the preamp circuitry is not isolated even when bypassed, so one ultimately must snip a couple of wires and reconnect them in order to truly remove the internal preamp from the circuitry. (There are other threads here that will show how to do this.)

The thing that hasn't been discussed so far is whether the OP has an amplifier and speakers to run his turntable through. I'm guessing the Crosley had a built in amplifier and speakers. If he doesn't have an amplifier and speakers, that will be something additional he will need to budget for. Or he'll have to run the LP120 through his computer in the meantime using the USB cable...or, if he's a headphone guy, get an inexpensive headphone amp for starters.

Here's a basic, but informative, video someone posted on YouTube showing the features of the LP120:

 

I agree with you on most of your post. However, I must take an exception to something you seem to infer, with your second sentence in the second paragraph above. There is a HUGE difference in the wow & flutter specs between the two turntables; the AT LP-120 has 10 to 20 times the wow & flutter of the Technics (0.2% for the AT, 0.01% for the Technics.) I had a Sony belt drive turntable with the same wow & flutter as the AT, and while it was fine for most popular music, I found it unsuitable for classical music because I'm very sensitive to pitch variations. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the AT is bad, and it is light-years better than the Crosley and its ilk, but a Technics is a huge step up in speed accuracy. The AT is a great table for a young person just starting out in vinyl and will give years of listening pleasure.

 

@quadjoe - I was not implying that (or even considering that) at all. I was talking purely about how music sounded, the tonal balance, the detail etc. I was not comparing W&F specs, just comparing how they played the same music, using the same cart, and how enjoyable I found it. I'd say, as the final arbiter on the listening experience, enjoyment of the music trumps quoted accuracy figures. The AT was just as enjoyable as the Technics on Nick Drake & John Martyn, but the 1200 was ever so slightly better on Kraftwerk & the Human League.

I'm aware of the difference on stated specs of the tables, I don't/cant dispute them - the companies published them after all- and all I will say is that I never, not once, not ever, heard any speed instability on my AT that wasn't directly attributable to an off-centre pressing. Was I lucky in my t/t? Possibly. But a friend of mine also has one and we've never heard it on his either. Is 2 out of however many they've made a definitive sample? Absolutely not. But it does kind of beg the questions of:

1. how audible that W&F difference actually is,
2. how important (as you say) the listening material in hearing/determining the difference is,
3. how important that is at the price level we're talking about, and
4. how important is a brand new and warrantied table to new vinyl users.

It is entirely possible (probable even?) that I'm not as sensitive to pitch variations as you - which I'm quite glad about, as it sounds like it could be an exhausting and frustrating situation, to be honest. I'm glad for you if the Technics solved that issue for you and allowed you to enjoy the music you want in th way you want.

 

The difference in wow & flutter is very audible, and it is entirely possible that AT understates their specification. I do know that many companies post minimum specifications, and often (most times) their gear performs better. BTW, with wow & flutter specs, anything below 0.1% is considered inaudible, IIRC. What I do know is that my Sony which had the same spec as the AT (0.2%) was unacceptable for classical music, but just fine for rock, jazz, etc. Really, anything that doesn't have a lot of sustained notes, which is where I could hear that difference. I admit that being sensitive to pitch variations is a pain, it's the reason I couldn't stand listening to any kind of music on an 8-track tape player.

That's the problem with specifications: they can only serve to be used as a "jumping off" point for comparisons, you really need to listen to any kind of gear for yourself to make a final determination of what is right for you.

So, your point #1 is the only issue I wanted to bring up. I don't dispute your experience of the two turntables at all. Your other points are (IMO) spot-on: listening material is important in whether or not you'll hear the difference, at the price level we're discussing you're not going to do any better than the AT (especially given that it comes with a built in phono stage with USB connectivity and a fairly decent cartridge). Finally, the value of having a turntable with a warranty is a great boon to a new vinyl user. The AT is an excellent choice for a beginner: the OP can learn how to set up a phono cartridge when the time comes for him to upgrade (I find this easier to do with a universal head-shell versus having to work with a fixed one.) Also, if he wants to get into 78 rpm records, he'll have the capability.

To vinylnewbie: I think you're going to be very happy with the AT table. It is going to be a HUGE revelation, especially compared to the Crosley (which is effectively a toy.) Regarding 78s: you'll find lots and lots for sale on eBay, and if you live in a fairly large city be sure to check out used record stores for them. Millions and millions of 78s were made and with certain notable exceptions, you shouldn't have to pay more than $1 to $5 apiece for them. There was a lot of great music recorded in the early 20th Century, and you'll really enjoy the discovery of it.

 

A Thorens 160 would be a huge leap in sound, and certainly better than a Technics or AT. And a huge leap into uncertainty if bought on eBay. Finding a truly good working Thorens quickly involves working with a dealer. Who's going to charge more than $300.00. If this is a ok, you won't be sorry in the least.

 

Newest marketing ploy.Supposedly a tie in with Sony.Maybe they want to get rid of all those non filled and defective pressings that have been piling up?

 

These Crosleys will not go away!

 

I've even heard needle drops sourced from Crosley's and the needle drops sound so tinny that I can't stand to listen to them and I know that radio listeners would complain about the sound of the recordings.

 

Vinyl starter kit???????

That looks worse than the Sears record player I had when I was 10 years old.

This "vinyl revolution" is giving manufacturers the incentive to flood the market with pure junk, and people will buy it because vinyl is "trendy". And being "cool" because you "play records" is the just plain wrong reason to buy a turntable.

 

'Vinyl Starter Kit' ?. I'll bet it finishes a fair bit of it off.

 

A BSR is leagues better than this garbage even (and BSR even made a decent changer or two)

 

True!
I use an early 70's vintage BSR P128R for playing 78's. With a Shure M75-6/M78 stylus (and wired for mono) it does a great job, and is fine for older slightly worn 60's mono LPs too!

 

There are suitable things to improve your Crosley. But they involve various uses of running them over with trucks aka Lorries, steamrollers flattening them, use of small and large arms fire, finding folks at military bases using items which go Ka-Boom, etc.

 

All a person has to do is USE the Crosley and it will self destruct, plus all the records played on it! "Mission impossible!"

 

True, the half life of one is really short

 

Don' buy a Crosley, redux! (a classic)

 

Weird! Crosley owners buying expensive RSD vinyl. McIntosh, Dynaco A 25, and Klipsch Chorus with Technics SP-25 system, Pioneer PL 518 owner, and AR XB owner goes to McKay Used Books, finds one dozen LP discs he likes, he spends $5 and change (the pressings cleaned up were also higher quality in over 75% of these) and mine sounded over 1000% better even on the least turntable I own. A sign of the times!

 

At the low end of the budget spectrum, CDs will easily beat vinyl for sound quality. No hipster cred, though.

 

Ruin those high priced RSD records on an official RSD Crosley from the official beer of RSD.

 

Yeah and wait till mint-looking but horribly sounding (from shot grooves resulting from playing on Crosleys) hIt the used bins and you start getting them :

WHOOOOOOSHHHHHHHHHHKJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJJCRACKKKKPOPCLICKTICKJUMPJUMP