Dark Side of the Moon: 4.0 vs. 5.1

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by vex, Mar 25, 2003.

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  1. vex

    vex New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Dark Side of the Moon – 5.1 SACD mix vs. original 4.0 Quadraphonic mix

    Gee, where do I begin? I must say that the SACD is absolutely stunning. The resolution was far and above the DTS CD I was using for comparison. Comparing the SACD to a DTS CD containing the original quad mix was hardly a fair contest. Of course, my aim was to compare the two mixes, ignoring the obvious sonic gap. That’s easier said than done. The resolution of the SACD could not be ignored. It made the lossy compressed DTS CD sound positively thin by comparison.

    However, with a bit of willpower I was able to overcome my drop-jawed amazement and concentrate on the individual mixes. I synched up both discs and was able to switch between them in real time. This made it very easy to pick out differences.

    One thing that became quite clear very early is that the new 5.1 mix, compared to the original 4.0 mix, has much, much more bass. I mean, the bass was obviously pushed way up in the mix. The bass is so thick and heavy at times that it masks intricate details and tends to muddy the vocals. The drums were also pushed up in the new 5.1 mix but not to an overpowering level. I feel the drums are at a more appropriate level in the 5.1 mix. Although the bass was a tad shy in the 4.0 mix, I feel that it was brought up too much for the 5.1 mix (gee, I wonder if Mr. Waters had a say in this).

    As for general presentation, on the whole, I would term the 5.1 mix to offer more of a “wide stereo” presence with surround elements, as opposed to the 4.0 mix, which is just the opposite – a surround mix with stereo elements. These differing approaches both work amazingly well for different reasons, and sometimes for contrasting reasons on different songs. I’m trying to stay away from writing about song-by-song or bar-by-bar comparisons for fear of getting bogged down here, but what you end up with is some songs sounding more airy and open in either mix. In other words, the differing strategies seem to achieve this same result depending upon the individual song. Okay, okay, I’ll throw in one example. I find the original 4.0 mix to offer a more airy and open presentation for “Speak To Me” and “Breathe” while I find the 5.1 mix to offer the same for “On The Run”.

    What has to be THE major difference in the two mixes (and this ties in with the differing approaches described previously) is that the 4.0 mix is mostly discrete while the 5.1 mix is mostly blended. Personally, I love super discrete surround mixes because it makes it very easy to identify and dissect the individual elements of the recording. I find that exercise fascinating, but it does not always (though it does a lot of the time) lead to the most satisfying listening experience. What happens in this case is that some of the sparser arrangements tend to sound thin, unfocused and overly fragmented in the 4.0 mix while they sound more cohesive and natural in the 5.1 mix. This works both ways, though, because some of the more elaborate elements will sound thick and congested in the 5.1 mix while they sound sharp and clean in the 4.0 mix.

    A lot of the time, the 5.1 mix does sound very open and involving. It seems to me that perhaps some undesirable effects may have been employed to achieve this. I can’t be sure, but it seems some additional echo/reverb or perhaps front/back digital delay was added to the footsteps in “On The Run”. The end result is very satisfying, but sounds markedly different from the 4.0 mix. I had a similar feeling (with an opposite reaction) when I was listening to “Great Gig In The Sky” on the SACD. Clare Torry’s voice seemed to suffer slightly from a diffusion not heard on the 4.0 mix

    Another obvious difference between the two mixes is the use of the center channel in the 5.1 mix. I’m not a big fan of center channels, generally, but I must say this time it was used to great effect. It never draws your attention to it but succeeds in really anchoring the image. On at least a couple of occasions this works too well. A passage that might otherwise be freely floating about is found “stuck in the middle”. However, for a vast majority of the time, I find the center channel in the 5.1 mix to be a great addition.

    One thing that is certainly prominent on both mixes is the tape hiss. It is a great relief to know that they didn’t NR the life out of the 5.1 mix. One good thing about the pumped up bass in the 5.1 mix is that it helps mask the tape hiss a good percentage of the time where it can otherwise be heard on the 4.0 mix.

    I must say that I was very apprehensive about the new 5.1 mix since I’ve always adored the original 4.0 mix. I can say with a sigh of relief that I welcome the new mix, and as it stands on its own, it is an incredible piece of work. However, I won’t go so far as to say it relegates the original 4.0 mix to obsolescence. On the contrary, I think the two mixes deserve to exist hand-in-hand, each offering unique, contrasting and revealing views on this classic record.

    Finally, I would just like to map out my preferences, song-by-song, between the two mixes:

    1. Speak To Me (4.0)
    2. Breathe (4.0)
    3. On The Run (5.1)
    4. Time (5.1)
    5. The Great Gig In The Sky (TIE)
    6. Money (5.1)
    7. Us And Them (4.0)
    8. Any Colour You Like (4.0)
    9. Brain Damage (4.0)
    10. Eclipse (4.0)

    That works out to roughly half the songs in favor of the old surround mix, and half the songs in favor of the new surround mix. This reflects my true preference for each and I did not intend for the balance to come out this way, but I’m glad that it did. It helps illustrate how the differing approaches to mixing this album have succeeded in different ways. They are both treasures, each deserving to be enjoyed and marveled over.
     
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  2. Dean De Furia

    Dean De Furia Senior Member

    Location:
    Northern NJ
    Great Review!!
    I, too, love the 4.0 mix. I'm picking up the SACD tomorrow so I can compare/contrast. It's going to be hard to beat the circling cash registers in "Money", though!
     
  3. sgraham

    sgraham New Member

    Location:
    Michigan
    Was that decidedly because of SACD vs dts, or was it perhaps due to the perhaps dubious origins of the dts disk?
     
  4. JonUrban

    JonUrban SHF Member #497

    Location:
    Connecticut
    Hey Vex,

    I agree with you for the most part. We only differ on the "Us and Them" mix. I really much prefer the discrete placement of the "us-us-us-us-etc" as opposed to the mixed in vocals.

    However, this is an amazing presentation that stands on its own. A good boost for the surround sound fan and skeptic!

    Nice write up.
     
  5. vex

    vex New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Thanks Dean! The cash register/coin effects are identical in both surround mixes.

    Graham, your observation regarding the footsteps is correct. I think they sound better in the new mix (aside from the additional echo/revereb or whatever). The DTS CD was mainly limited by the fact that it was a 4:1 compressed 16-bit CD, but the "questionable source" was certainly another hinderance to its sonic character.
     
  6. vex

    vex New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Hey Jon, thanks! Yeah, I like the circling "us and them" lyrics better in the 4.0 mix, but overall, I prefer the 5.1 version. That one was a tough call, but I found the overall sparseness of the track to sound more "fleshed out" in the 5.1 mix.

    ------------

    New edit of message here... Jon, I've changed my mind. I just went back and did another run through and I do prefer the 4.0 mix of "Us And Them" over the 5.1 mix. The sparseness I referred to actually works in the song's favor. The 5.1 mix is a little heavy-handed here and interferes with the delicate nature of the track.

    Also, I can't make up my mind over which mix of "The Great Gig In The Sky" I like better. I like the 5.1 mix because it brings the instrumentation forward, but I prefer the 4.0 mix because the vocals are a lot more well defined and delicate. I'll call this one a tie for now.
     
  7. vex

    vex New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Re: Re: Dark Side of the Moon: 4.0 vs. 5.1

    I found tape hiss to be quite prominent in the 5.1 SACD mix (I haven't checked the stereo SACD tracks yet). Listen to the beginning of "Great Gig in the Sky". It is quite easy to pick out the tape hiss there.
     
  8. What's that - CD with quad mix? Can you be more specific?
    Andrew
     
  9. vex

    vex New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    It is one of the many quadraphonic to DTS conversions available. I will say the one I used for comparison is the best quality available. I cannot comment beyond that.
     
  10. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Thanks, Vex! I didn't get a chance to listen to the 5.1 mix yet but I'm looking forward to it.

    Todd

    P.S. Do you think the cash registers were influenced by 'Are You Being Served?'
     
  11. Joe Koz

    Joe Koz Prodigal Bone Brother™ In Memoriam

    Location:
    Chicagoland
    Good Call!! I never thought of that. My wife is a big fan of that show. We watch it quite often.
     
  12. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Thanks, Joe. I always thought of that show when I heard the start of that track. I think it's possible because Floyd seemed to like TV shows. they paid hommage once to Dr. Who...

    Todd
     
  13. Dean De Furia

    Dean De Furia Senior Member

    Location:
    Northern NJ
    Vex, At least those with the Quad British 8-track will still have a valuable collectable. If the 4.0 mix came out on SACD, the 8-track value would be in the dumper. Glad to hear the cash register sounds are the same on the 5.1!
     
  14. vex

    vex New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    I hadn't really thought about that... I used to watch that show!

    Well, a quick search on Google allowed me to find the original air dates of the programs:

    http://www.phill.co.uk/comedy/aybs/list.html

    The only episode that aired prior to the completion of DSOTM was the pilot episode, which aired on 8 Sep 72. The question is, was the theme song to "Are You Being Served?" written for the Pilot or not until the first season?

    I dunno... something to ponder though...
     
  15. JohnG

    JohnG PROG now in Dolby ATMOS!

    Location:
    Long Island NY
    Great review Vex, I also like both versions. I'm glad I have the DTS version as it shows a different side of this great album.

    JohnG
     
  16. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
  17. ACK!

    ACK! Senior Member

    Location:
    New Hampshire
    Unfortunately, I am unable to access the 5.1 mix, as I do not own an SACD player. However, I will say that the stereo mix sounds better than ever, with more definition and a much-improved bass sound.

    BTW, after reading last weekend how Wally World (aka Wal-Mart) was selling it ahead of its release date, I bopped on down to the local Wal-Mart and sure enough, they were selling it. Probably the first time I'd ever purchased a CD three days before it's actual release date.

    Ahh, ya gotta love retail stores that have no clue!



    :D
     
  18. JohnG

    JohnG PROG now in Dolby ATMOS!

    Location:
    Long Island NY
  19. JohnG

    JohnG PROG now in Dolby ATMOS!

    Location:
    Long Island NY
    "The first voice heard - saying, "I've been mad for ****ingyears" - is Floyd's then road manager Chris Adamson. Then it's Jerry Driscoll announcing, "I've always been mad. I know I've been mad like the most of us have." The crazed laughter is from Peter 'Puddy' Watts, Floyd's late executive road manager, who was recorded on a previous session."

    JohnG
     
  20. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Vex, thanks for the 'Are You Being Served?' air dates. The pilot did use the same theme with the registers. Also, Croft/Lloyd were a pretty hot duo with 'Dad's Army', etc. You never know... :)

    Todd
     
  21. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    P.S. What a great website for British comedy info. Damn, I've seen so many of the shows. "The Bounder", "Butterflies", etc.

    Todd
     
  22. AKA

    AKA Senior Member

    I just hope we don't have to wait six years to hear "The Wall" in 5.1.
     
  23. vex

    vex New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Well, we have "The Wall" DVD movie with its 5.1 Dolby Digital soundtrack. I was very dissapointed with the sound of that one, to be honest. I hope we get a better surround mix for the hi-rez release.
     
  24. GoldenBoy

    GoldenBoy Purple People Eater

    Location:
    US
    I have to agree, I was not impressed with the sound of The Wall on DVD. I didn't think it was such a great 5.1 mix, and it sounded a bit thin to me. Then again, I think almost all DVD's I've heard sound thin - it must be that DD and/or dts compression that bugs me.
     
  25. vex

    vex New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA
    Yeah, sometimes it is hard to look past the technology, and in the case of something like 10:1 compression of Dolby Digital, it's damn near impossible. So, I might have a different impression of "The Wall" 5.1 movie mix if it were in a higher resolution format, but I doubt it. The mix itself just seems kind of a bland and lifeless toss-off. I don't think a lot of effort was put into that mix.
     
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