Dave Clark 5 Live

Shot noted.

I will grant you this, Bill...you're a lot better at speculating than you are at taking responsibility for statements you've made or answering questions that arise from them:

 

I clearly remember an interview with Dave where he flatly says:

"We Quit At The Top".

Now, I personally interpert that to mean he wanted to insure the bands legacy as hitmakers and so called it quits.

And as for the band not being able to play live, thats so ridiculous it doesnt even merit a discussion. The same 5 guys played like 250 gigs across the UK in 1962-3 before they had a record deal. Did they just forget how to play their instruments in 1964?

 

Clark has iron clad ownership of their performances and refuses to allow them to be released. You will note the DC5 are not on the "official" Ed Sulliam shows released in spite of their record number of appearances.

Re the breakup I suspect it was a typical corporate layoff if you will. He paid the Rick, Lenny & Denis a set salary and when sales dried up he was not covering those costs. Concert attendance dries up so there was no money there. It was cheaper to finish off he contracts with nothing but studio musicians so the band ceased to exist. As Mike Smith was the musical brains he needed to be there and got a better deal than the others.

 

Note that the 1971 Epic 2-LP stereo set only has Clark-Smith "compositions." I always assumed this reflected the DC5 becoming the DC2, so they could share in any royalties and not the newly jettisoned DC3.

 

This is a tad off topic, but I figured that it fits in here. Over at Youtube someone has posted a couple unreleased DC5 tracks. They were apparently sourced from an acetate Lenny Davidson had (or still has?), during the time of the 5x5 sessions, which would make these 1967.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBtULOcC_jw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AL2YbKDnT4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vret0ixY7Ts&feature=channel

 

Clarkie

>>>If I recall, that 2 Lp set has "Catch Us", doesnt it? Thats a Clark/Davidson.

 

Nope. Doesn't.
When I bought it, I was overjoyed to find that it was all stereo, but found the selections a bit bizarre. Then I read the credits on each label. All Clark-Smith, with the exception of Because, which is credited to Dave alone. No Lenny, Rick, Denis (or Ron) in sight.

 

Thanks for posting. Always wanted to know what these sounded like.

 

What would those questions be, other than your speculative disagreement with me because I'm speculating? Reminds me of the Monty Python skit where the guy pays for an argument. Read the other board and you'll find that I'm not alone in my skepticism. Others share in it, including the folks that played on the records and wrote the hits (according to their allegations, which have not been proven yet). I guess we'll just have to see. Or, just enjoy the music, just as we do that of the Monkees.
By the way, reread the Clark interview in the Mighty Max's book and show me where he denies that the group didn't play on its records. It's not there---a classic non-denial denial (The rumor is typical...people try to knock you down if you're successful...those rumors hurt me, etc.)
Call me irresponsible...

 

Circle Star July 1965

OK - here is the Circle Star Theater show from July of 1965 that I attended - same show as Come Home & Do You Love Me I previously posted - sorry for the oops, I got the DYLM version mixed up from the much worse sounding Philly show but this is the entiore show, quite obviously live. If you want them feel free to download them.


http://www.rock-talk.us/dc5live

 

Interesting how everyone quotes the Weinberg book. Max thought DC was uncooperative and arrogant. He later found out why.


Others share in it, including the folks that played on the records and wrote the hits (according to their allegations, which have not been proven yet).

That will never be proven to everyone no matter what evidence is offered


just enjoy the music

That is very sage advice

 

Can't resist. I knew I had read this quote by Dave somewhere, and just found it in the March 2009 Mojo:
"When I decided to go and study drama, we were still selling millions of records so it wasn't a case of the audiences drying up. We started at the top- and that was luck, being in the right place at the right time. And we stopped at the top, and we're very blessed to have done it."
I'm done.

 

Fantastic! After falsely comparing the DC5 to the Monkees in their ability to perform live and unfairly slaming Clark's drumming (hear live tape in above post), you have proven that a rock and roll star exaggerated his band's popularity at their career's end. Impressive.

 

I was alluding to the fact that, although the Monkees didn't write the bulk of their songs or play on their records (I know, Headquarters), we still enjoy their music and, even if that is also true about the DC5, we should also just enjoy their music. I provided the Dave quote about going out on top because I was criticized for referring to it as if I had made it up. He said it.
Calm down.

 

DC prevented use of his shows via contract and regusing synch licenses from the DC5 masters and publishing he owns. Most of the clips that have surfaced to collectors were internal leaks from the industry and not reruns on tv or VHS(RSG footage being an exception)release. It's not like the production crew had a seperate master tape that they only gave Dave.

For some reason most of the 64 NME show circulates, but it's missing DC5, Sir Cliff, Shadows, Tom Jones and Twinkle. I'm not aware of the NME shows ever being rebroadcast on tv beyond the 60's or ever legit sold on VHS/LD/DVD. Snippets of performances have been used in later documentaries.

http://missingepisodes.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=totp&action=print&thread=3859

This link has some neat info. It also references a 1966 Royal Gala TV performance with features a bonafide live clip featuring DC5. I think this only surfaced within the last year or so, as the show also contained live Walker Brother footage.

 

Bill, I'm sure it suits your purposes to cast me as just another of the legions who somehow doesn't want to believe that Dave Clark didn't play on his records, or as someone who will defend him at all costs.

Of course, a simple rereading of my posts will show that this is far from the case. I'm not going to repeat what I've already said just because you've chosen to ignore it.

My questions (which were quite specific the first time around, and which I repeated in the post you've just selectively quoted) related to conclusions you drew in your previous post which weren't warranted by the evidence you presented.

I have great respect for those who hold and articulate a different position from mine -- as long as they take responsibility for what they say and have the courtesy (not to mention the courage) to respond to challenges to that position.

When they summarily ignore the challenges, that respect is greatly diminished. (And this, by the way, is not the first time you've done this.)

Well, thanks for at least conceding this point, which was the main one I've been making all along.

It's entirely plausible that every one of the most damning allegations being made here is 100 percent true (e.g., Dave Clark never wrote a lick of music, Ron Ryan wrote "Anyway You Want It" and "Because," NO members of the DC5 played on their recordings [another question I asked for clarification from you that you ingored], etc. etc.).

All I've been trying to do is examine the evidence for these claims and determine, on an individual basis, how solid each piece of it is.

I have also stated that I personally find Clark to be a bit cold-blooded and to possess some less than admirable qualities. Again, if it suits you to cast me as just another Clark fan-boy, go right ahead. But you won't find evidence for this in my posts. I'm only trying to nail down as much truth as we can. (Of course, you find that enterprise itself worthy of mockery....)

That seems to be the sole thing we have in common. Whatever you or I or anyone else may think of Clark personally, there's also the argument that if he hadn't been the way he was, we might never have heard a lot of music that has brought us a great deal of pleasure.

I agree, and had the same thought when I first read this passage of the Weinberg book, and again more recently when I reread it. Clark obviously chose his words carefully and stopped way short of a firm denial.

Once again, a rereading of my posts will show that in recent times I reversed the position I once held and now feel that the totality of evidence points to the conclusion that someone else drummed on DC5 records besides Dave Clark.

Hardly necessary....

 

Wow! Bill, I think it's you who needs to calm down. I only asked where you got the "went out on top" idea from the Weinberg book, which was what was specifically under discussion at the time. Apologies if I bruised your feelings in doing so.

You've since provided another cite, and that's fine. But stay tuned....

 

It's reassuring to know(if even from a very poor audience recording), that The Dave Clark Five really did play when people came to their shows.

 

As jgreen says, Clark wouldn't be the first artist to exaggerate his accomplishments. (From what I've been able to find, characterizing Ron Ryan as someone who recorded "successful country albums in the seventies" might be a similar stretch.)

On the other hand, in an earlier post you advised that we should "check the charts" -- but you conveniently neglected to check the UK ones.

It's true, as I agreed, that the DC5 never charted in the US Hot 100 after 1967. However, from late 1967 through late 1970, they had four more Top 10 UK hits, and nine chart entries overall.

Were they "selling millions" at the end? Hard to say...perhaps that's a bit of hyperbole, although one assumes they were still selling in other markets beyond the UK too, so perhaps they were in toto.

But no matter. Overall, your approach to this entire subject strikes me as being merely the other side of the coin to the "fanboys" who think Clark can do no wrong.

Much as I dread using a word that Fox News has co-opted, the term "balance" again comes to mind.

 

Any live footage from Asia or Australia?

 

Did Twinkle play his/her/its own instruments in the studio ? ? ?

 

Thanks for that. As bad as the quality is, it's nice to see they seemed to be good live.

One thing that amazes me is that there isn't more from them out there. As big as they were for a while, they have practically no live shows/demos/alt takes compared to the amount of Beatles and Stones stuff floating around.

 

Her. Had a teen tragedy song in England in the 60s named "Terry".

I don't know if she played her own instruments, though.

 

I saw the DC5 live 43 years ago this week.I greatly enjoyed the show, as I was a big fan, and it was my first concert. They played all of the songs live, but Dave's playing skills were very perfunctory, keeping up with the beat but not much more, as evidenced by the clips that have been posted. Compare the drum patterns on the live Come Home with those on the recorded version. At the time, I thought that this was curious, particularly in light of his prominence in the staging. It was that way on all of the songs, far different than the recorded versions, which led me (and still leads me) to believe that session musicians played on the records. It also appears (to me) from what has emerged that there is some question whether he actually wrote, or co-wrote, all of the group's songs. We will probably never know definitively.
The music is still great. I'm going to go play some.

 

(From what I've been able to find, characterizing Ron Ryan as someone who recorded "successful country albums in the seventies" might be a similar stretch.)

Since that's me I'll only say Ron's country career allowed him to now be retired, certainly not wealthy like his brother Mick and DC but comfortable in a nice country home in a pleasant village in the English countryside. I consider that successful (not being snarky) I also realize that at some pont unless and utill DC fesses up it takes a leap of faith to accept his story. But since there is ample proof now of the actual recording process and the players and non-players (essentially Clark & Huxley in the studio) the leap is not so great. There's also copies of legal documents filed away, admissions by the other members of the band (both living and dead). However DC's deep pockets and litigious nature shape the timeline on the storytelling. Ron's story is certainly not unique in the musical world of the sixties and beyond.

Again - nobody would have cared had not Clark lied all these years. And to suggest the he could write songs solo let alone co-write every other song is ludicrous. He was simply trying to create an image like Lennon/McCartney. He co-wrote nothing.