Dave Clark 5 Live

From what I can hear the drumming on the tape is very much like the records. The pattened snare rolls are the same. The drums on the record were very perfuctory. It sounds like the same drummer to me.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM

 

You know, Bill, if this is the only reaction you can make to a poster who expresses a different idea than yours, maybe you're not cut out for a place like this.

We're here because we're all passionate music fans. Inevitably, this means there will be some conflicting views from time to time.

jgreen listened to the live recordings posted and concluded that, to his ears, the drumming heard on them is not radically different from the drumming on DC5 records. He's free to reach that conclusion...and to be honest, I came to a similar one.*

Because that view doesn't square with yours, does that mean either of us should ridiculed with a reference to a Monty Python sketch because we dare to express it?

Seems to me your next move should be to find a music forum where everyone simply agrees with one another...or more importantly, with you.

Good luck.



*This assessment does not necessarily lead to the conclusion that Dave Clark drummed on the records...only that he was not nearly as incompetent a drummer as you and others have alleged.

 

I don't mean to nit-pick (or be snarky either!), but a successful retirement and "successful country albums" are two different things. Did Ron Ryan support himself during his working days entirely on the strength of his recording/songwriting career, or did he make his living in other ways as well?

I'm just askin'. After some fairly extensive Google searching, I was able to turn up this:

1) One Clifford James track included on a compilation album in the U.S.

2) One reference to a Johnny Cash tribute album by Clifford James released in the UK.

That's it. (And I have a hard time imagining a Johnny Cash tribute album being a big seller anywhere on earth, when a plethora of albums by the original artist remains available.)

...and you've seen these documents?

I'm not casting doubt on either of these things...only saying that the case being made here on this forum might have been stronger if they had been more fully revealed.

I can agree with this statement. However, I would also note that little-known or unknown people falsely claiming authorship of big hit records isn't unique either.

These are very damning and absolute statements, and what I'm wondering is how you can be so completely certain of them.

Is there testimony from other DC5 members that Clark had no musical ability whatsoever? That he would be incapable of "coming up with the hook" for a song which would then be expanded and polished up by Smith or Davidson, as Clark states (or, if your allegations are true, lies about) in the Weinberg interview?

I'm not at all denying the possibility that this is true...it may well be. Again, I'm merely looking for a firm foundation upon which to rest these accusations.

 

Drumming

The widely known drum sound that characterized the DC5 hits is radically different than the drumming on earlier recordings - just listen to them. Also if DC actually drummed on the records why did he do such a lousy job mimimg? Yes he was fine live and his machine gun roll sounded OK - it was also likened to a garbage can rolling down stairs. That could have been handled by anyone after a couple of months worth of drum lessons. Anyone that thinks DC was in control in the studio when Do You Love Me was recorded is sadly mistaken. Columbia was and their hired gun was Adrian Kerridge. Otherwse why the sudden epiphany about a style and sound?

Listen to I Knew It All the Time, Thats What I Said and jump to say Sweet City Woman,. Then listen to anything from Do You Love Me through the singles and say mid 1967. There's a clear difference in both style & abillity. He stopped paying for BG and either took over himself or one of the myriad session drummers that claimed to play on DC5 stuff was there.

 

Those rim shot snare rolls are a DC5 trademark, like them or not. The fact that they are duplicated on the live tape and that, at times, the drums actually are PUSHING the band is enough to convince me DC was a good drummer. After admitting as much you criticize his miming. So now he could play live but couldn't mime! It is obvious that you have an ax to grind about Dave Clark.

 

They sure are; also a trademark of lots of other British Invasion recordings. I can't see how Dave had the time to do all of those sessions AND guide the band's career AND write all of those classic songs. No wonder he doesn't do much these days!
http://www.bobbygraham.co.uk/bobbygraham/hits.htm

 

Thank you!

 

My axe to grind as you say is simply that he is dishonest. Watch the mimed sets and see how often he messes up the drumming. My point was that when miming he was copying someone else - playing live he was copying the style but still playing and he kept it very simple. Of course that roll was a trademark - and of course he could do it. Why would he and/or Kerridge be so stupid as to have a style on record he couldn't emulate live.

Take a look at any Try Too Hard, look at the I Need Love vid, even Can't You See vids - he is way off. He is all over the place on ANy Way You Want It too. There is however a vid of Do You Love Me that almost sounds live - switches to a record after a bit and he absolutely nailed that one. I've never ever said he couldn't play live.

Interstingly enough his biggest supporter in several conversations I've had about his drumming ability is Ron Ryan. Ron always said he was good and steady.

Again - much ado over nothing if he was honest. Many groups did things that way. One of my all time fave albums is Pet Sounds. The Beach Boys just sang on that one but when I saw them live they played every note correctly.

 

So did the DC5. Anything else is nitpicking. I don't count honesty to the media as a big part of being a member of a great rock and roll band. Nor is miming. They sound as much like their records as the Beatles did.

 

This was the OP. Thanks to Shackman's tape I think its fair to answer yes. They played live and sounded very good!

 

So what are you saying? That there was a studio Sax player for those songs?
Of course I've heard those songs...nice playing, but not "stellar"...

 

I could kiss you for that...

 

Denis played the sax on the recordings - he also played guitar, harmonica and so on. He was a talented musician who figured a nice, steady salary was a good thing. Smart guy who did well after the DC5 as an estate agent - what we call a realtor/broker I think. He was also fri=onting a band called Formula One until he got sick.

 

Actually I saw the Beatles in 66 at Candlestick Park and they were awful. The DC5 sounded must better live, although the Beatles were in a cavernous venue without any of the technical saavy required for those venues. On other lives recordings the Beatles were excellent. Best live performances I saw though were a two hour show by The Association and a couple of shows by Blood Sweat and Tears.

The live vs recorded sound issue is interesting. I know people on both sides of that one - some refuse to see a band live, some prefer live music. A good live show is hard to beat.

 

That I can appreciate. I can only say the same was true when the session player stories came up and they have been verified. Bit by bit the story unravels. Everything I've said has been verified by an individual I trust implicitly. Ron's story is supported the same way.

Graham's claims have never been refuted by Clark and in fact one of BG's school sessions included a nephew of DC. Can it be DC is silent because the documentation all backs up BG?

Gotta admit Mike - DC5 stuff sure makes for intersting debate - LOL. Both sides are equally passionate and fortunately remain civil during the discourse. And again I say it would not matter one bit if Clark had not spent a career perpetuating the lie. Nobody would have cared. Did you know he tried to buy You Really Got Me from Ray Davies? Had he put his name on it as sole composer would anyone care?

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Lewis_&_the_Playboys

The "60's fame" part of this wiki article says DC5 did their first Sullivan show live.

No citation.

 

I made my money back in the 1970's by recordings (I made quite a few vinyl Albums, and cassette Albums, and two singles). My main income was made touring with my Band, and also on Road-shows where I acted as Singer/Compere. I also invested in property, and did quite well from that, and I have always been interested in the Stock market, and did quite well there. I don't have to work these days, but I have started a Country Band, and we do selective Gigs, we opened 'Truckfest' in Peterborough a couple of weeks ago, and did rather well.

 

He is the BEST businessman

I hear what your saying,but a while ago when Mike Smite was near death,I read up on the bands history. It was surreal to say the least. Dave Clark invented and sponsored the whole thing at his expense.
I had never heard of a young pop group from the UK or anywhere else at that time being totally independant of a label and go into a studio and record an album.
Apparently that is what they did. They now of course have many legal problems,or rather Dave Clark is getting bad press. Mike Smith had the talent,but it is called the DAVE CLARK FIVE for a reason and that reason is his business acumen.
Check out the backstory on this band. It is very interesting. Just Google Dave Clark Five and narrow it down to Dave Clarks involvement with the making of the band.
I could never understand why they had the horn player. Talk about superfluous. He didnt sing and barely played. It should have been the DC4 ... You would not have known the difference.
One last thing. It was mind boggling to read what the surviving members are doing doing for work.
One would think that after having success as huge as that band ,that all members would be set for life. Not so. But Dave Clark is. Mike Smith wasn't and he was the band for all intents and purposes.

 

Are you serious about Denny Payton? He was played every lead and was a big part of their powerful sound. This DC 5 bashing is becoming a little sick, IMO.

 

The DC5 was around when I attended grade school, and besides not coming anywhere near me, never had the chance to see them live. From what I've seen in clips, they would have been interesting to see; I would have been curious to hear if they were as powerful live as on record.

Why DC has the songs locked up, we'll never know. Only he does and he's NOT talking. A sad part to all of this, the a$$holes who run the HOF wait until 2 members are dead to *finally* put the band in the Hall Of Fame. But...considering who runs the damn thing/determines enshrinement, I'm not surprised anymore. The way things have been going lately, the baby boomers will be dead and gone before most of the bands we'd like to see in actually do so.

 

oh my, how cool

 

ITA

 

Don Wilson mentioned during a radio interview a few years ago that the Ventures wrote most of their 60's album tracks by jamming together so the band credit is appropriate.

And Dolton Records also had studio musicians cut Ventures album tracks while they were touring.

One thing about the DC5... their Epic albums were very short. "Greatest Hits Volume One" was around 19-20 minutes both sides!

 

Hmm. I'm trying to imagine Any Way You Want It or Having A Wild Weekend without the sax. I can't. Though the sax wasn't prominent, it was integral to the sound if you ask me. Though critics cited the Stax sound, I thought their 90s band Rocket From The Crypt cribbed the sax approach from the DC5.

Dale