Dave Clark 5 Live

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by guest 4254, Jun 23, 2009.

  1. dgsinner

    dgsinner New Member

    Location:
    Far East
    I think a comparison of this and two other tracks is revealing about the drumming. The drumming on this live version of Do You Love Me, specifically the rolls, don't really have the same style of playing as the studio version. Here's a minute long sample:

    https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=dXFXb3BJWlRUMFB2Wmc9PQ

    However, the drumming on the studio version, again with a focus on the rolls, sounds identical in style (to my ears, anyway) to the drumming you hear on the studio version of All Of The Day And All Of The Night by The Kinks. Sample here:

    https://www.yousendit.com/transfer.php?action=batch_download&batch_id=dXFXb3BBT01vQnRjR0E9PQ

    I love all the DC5 hits and lots of their album tracks, so this really has no bearing on my enjoyment of the sound...but, I think if you listen to the studio recording of DC5's Do You Love Me cover and The Kinks studio version of All Of The Day And All Of The Night, you hear the same drummer -- and that drummer is not the same as the one on the live post you linked to above.

    Dale
  2. retrocool73

    retrocool73 New Member

    Location:
    Hull, UK
    The DC5's sound RELIED on Payton's sax as much as it did the fantastic vocals. However, the 'public side' of the DC5, ie the tv appearences, sought to make a monkey out of poor Denis - Catch Us If You Can when he had to mime the harmonica solo whilst the sax still blew (why not have Mike do that?) or the latter day DC5 hits which had Denis and his sax pretending to be a full horn section (You Got What It Takes, The Red Balloon etc) or even a trombone! (Live In The Sky). He was in fact a talented multi-instrumentalist who's talents were underused in the DC5
  3. Ron Ryan

    Ron Ryan New Member

    Location:
    Lincolnshire, UK
    I always though the Den' was a bit like an iceberg, you only saw the tip of that great players talent. His playing was very important to the sound of the DC5, I heard a record by 'Doug Sheldon' called 'Your Ma said you cried in your sleep last night', I bought it and took it to Dave and said something like 'here's is the sound you are looking for'. If you play that record (it's on youtube) you will hear the sound of the of the DC5. I like his playing on one of the early songs I wrote for the Band 'Doo Dah', but sad to say he really never got a chance to show what he could do on DC5 records.
  4. empirelvr

    empirelvr Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Virginia, USA
    Is reviving an old thread like this okay..?

    Anyway...my own two cents on the subject.

    Regarding Dave's drumming contribution to his recordings and Bobby Graham's claims he's playing on them, as a recording engineer and a drummer I am confident in saying I think BOTH sides are true. Why? Because most of the early DC5's songs have two drum tracks.

    Listen to any of the early hits: "Glad All Over," "Everybody Knows (I Still Love You)," "Try Too Hard," and especially the original mono mix of "Can't You See That She's Mine" and you will hear two drum lines. Sometimes in parts of the song, sometimes throughout.

    One drum line is simple, steady, and very basic. The other is fancier with lots of punctuation, fills, rolls, accents and other embellishments.

    I think the basic track is Dave, and the "fancy" overdubs belong to Graham (or another session drummer.)

    "Can't You See That She's Mine" is especially telling since we have two different mixes. Listen to the stereo mix Dave made in 1969 and you hear one drum track. Simple, steady, and very straightfoward.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vPHqLMjblw

    Now listen to the original mono mix:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1LRPfg4frY

    Notice the extra fills and cymbal crashes throughout the song (along with another track of Mike Smith vocals.) I think those are Bobby Graham overdubs.

    Another example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__OSr6P6Bdk Listen...two different drum tracks.

    You also have the two mixes of "Bits And Pieces" which clearly show extra cymbal crashes and other percussive effects in the mono mix, absent from the stereo remix.

    This is SOP for DC5 records until mid-1966 when the DC5's style changes and we suddenly switch to songs having a single drum track, without much polish, which in time becomes increasingly more plodding and unimaginative, suggesting Dave went at it alone (and maybe got bored by it all along the way.)

    Upshot: I think at least in the early days, Dave and the rest of the Five would cut basic tracks and at a later date, Dave would tweak the tracks with session players (especially for his drum track) during vocal overdubs.

    So, it makes sense then that Dave would have to be evasive or mum when someone broaches the subject. Keeping up the appearence that they played it *all* seems to be important to him, even at this late date. So he hedges and never says anything definitive, because unlike a "he said/he said" situation, musician union sheets must exist somewhere for the DC5 recording sessions. Because of that he needs to be careful in what he says, lest the logs come out and possibly contradict any assertion he might make.

    And the ultimate irony? It doesn't matter. They are great records. It's not like they are someone else's records. Dave was in charge, and it was all done under his watch.
  5. Vegas1day

    Vegas1day New Member

    The DC5 has been referred to as a great "bar band". I'm okay with that. I had very little talent when I played with my band as a young man. If Dave Clark wasn't the best of drummers, he laughed all the way to the bank. (Ringo has, too). I'm still stomping along to their songs. If they had some help during recording sessions, who cares? If you liked their music that's all that matters. Too many experts out there that probably share my lack of talent but love of all of the music the British Invasion brought us.
  6. jimmo

    jimmo New Member

    Who is "BG,"

    What does "IIRC" mean? Not singling out you, but there ought be a rule in message boards (as in legitimate journalism) that on a first reference one must spell out for what the letters of an acronym stand. Only in succeeding references should the abbreviated form be permitted.
  7. Bill

    Bill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Bobby Graham, as in "Graham," in the previous sentence.
    If I recall correctly.
    LOL. ROTFL. Seriously.
  8. jgreen

    jgreen Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis,MO.
    I guess I didn't recall correctly because I said Lenny sang Mike's original harmony part. After seeing the Sullivan no backing tape video which shows the band actually singing live for a few seconds I realize Lenny sang the high harmony on the records. I still think Mike sang both parts on "Because" but since they always lip-synced on TV we didn't get to discover those details. I always felt cheated when a band lip-synced but at least they were there, unlike the Beatles first video on the Sullivan show -"Strawberry Fields" and "Penny Lane". That was a real rip off.
  9. Tonetwister

    Tonetwister New Member

    For what it is worth...I am a guitarist of 53 years, and was fortunate to spend a couple years engineering and producing in an MCI-equipped 16-track studio. I've played more live jobs than I can begin to remember over a 35 year semi-pro career, and saw a fairly large number of groups come through the old Jacksonville, FL Veterans Memorial Coliseum. That venue had a cluster of Altec Lansing A7's hanging from the center ceiling. When The Five played, they used VOX AC-30's which were obviously miked. In 1965, I was around 18 years of age and was already in a band by the time The Beatles broke, so I had a little experience in this business by the time I saw The Five. I was flabbergasted at how incredibly professional the DC5 sounded...far better than any group I had ever heard, which included The Candymen after they broke with Roy Orbison after his English tour with the Fabs, if I have my timing correct.

    I will put this out there for conjecture and see what you guys might think...To this day, I am still amazed that they were able to stay in time together with about a 100 millisecond delay coming back to them from those A7's that were way up high, and quite a long way away from them. Those were their only vocal monitors. And The Five sounded darn plenty like their records ... in fact, if anything, Smith's Continental was a bit louder than the rest of the group. His sound encompassed the entire coliseum, which was pretty darn large, spilling out of those A7's like a waterfall, vibrato glistening.

    The only glitch I saw, was after the end of a song that Clark appeared to be singing on, he began to talk, and I saw him reach up and hit a switch on the mic, and his voice came on. So the only faking I could see, was Clark doing vocals with an "OFF" microphone. My opinion is that they played live, and that as many jobs as they played, two things: it would have been easier to play live than try to time starts to a tape machine; and they were probably way good enough to pull off a live show every time...you just can't fake it every time, and they played enough jobs to be real pros. Now, Little River Band could be an altogether different story ...
  10. Glenn Christense

    Glenn Christense Japage 3 fan

    Location:
    Pepperland
    Nobody really squawks about Dennis Wilson not playing on many of the Beach Boys records but he did a pretty good job playing live with the band. I actually kind of like his rough, unschooled approach to
    playing. Dave may have been a smart enough business man to realize a studio drummer could cut the track more efficiently and quicker than he could.

    Anyway, the DC5's records sounded great, so that's all that matters to me. Dave may have been a poor drummer live or a great drummer live but 45 or 50 years later it doesn't really matter.
  11. Bill

    Bill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I think it's the songwriting claims, dicking the real composers out of their compensation, and creating the illusion that the DC5 was a band when it was a bunch of salaried employees that turn people against wonderful human being. Plus his remarkable humility, on evidence during the PBS special directed, produced and written by...Dave Clark. That his magnificent, stage center drumming performances weren't even miked on the Ed Show just adds to the rich patina of fraud, as does the pile of steaming matter that was Time.
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
    goodiesguy and Skip Reynolds like this.
  12. Glenn Christense

    Glenn Christense Japage 3 fan

    Location:
    Pepperland
    Oh, I'm not trying to imply that Dave Clark is a great guy , or was fair with the other guys in the band, etc. Ultimately though all that's left of the DC5 is the records, and I enjoy them when I hear them.
    I don't bring all the psychodrama to the room when I listen to Beach Boys records or worry at this point who played on them, or think about Mike Loves shenanigans,nor do I think about Stan Polley when I think about how he screwed the Badfinger band members. All these instances are the bands personal business and we as outsiders don't really know the whole story.

    I would assume/hope the other band members were aware of whatever deal was made with them, and although I'm by no means a DC5 expert, I don't recall any of the band members bitching about how they were treated by Dave, except I have some memory regarding Mike Smith mentioning/complaining about the lack of availability of DC5 material , which Dave was holding back.

    Yes, it looks like Ron Ryan has a good case for getting screwed by Dave, but i'm not sure the band members themselves do, and not that it makes it right, but it seems like almost EVERY 50's and 60's band guy has a horror story of getting screwed one way or another. Dave certainly isn't the first guy in show business to have a huge ego . Just ask Little Richard.:D
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2014
  13. Reader

    Reader Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Strawberry Fields
    For us it really does boil down to the records. All of music and all other art is done by humans who sadly probably have so many faults we'd not listen or enjoy any of it unless we ignore the personal issues. I just enjoy the DC5 recordings and ignore the harshness of their history. Sometimes a clown can make great music.
    Bill and Glenn Christense like this.
  14. MidnightRocks

    MidnightRocks Active Member

    Location:
    Dublin, Ireland
    I don't buy that 60s groups were faking it to live tapes in real concert venues. I know the Hollies wanted to augment their shows with some live tapes (for example the steel drum solo on a Carrie Anne) and did so occasionally but supposedly blew some minds in doing so. I'm sure Nash has claimed this was highly original when they used tapes like this in front of the LA musical establishment in 67.

    Also they frequently had trouble with unions over it and sometimes had to hire local string musicians etc. town by town.
  15. empirelvr

    empirelvr Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Virginia, USA
    People think it would have been so easy to do that....baloney!! Miming to a tape in a live setting would assume the venue had the equipment, know-how, and personnel to deal with such a set-up which was absolutely not the case. Bands were barely able to get mics and a working PA system for their vocals in the biggest and most savvy of locations and yet somehow they were going to be able to pipe in a tape for them to mime to?

    Portable tape recorders were notoriously unreliable back then. Speed issues from voltage fluctuations were the norm, as well as tube and mechanical failures. (Especially if the machine was being dragged all over creation, which a band would have had to have done.)

    You also had the very real issue of splices falling apart, possible tape breakage (on acetate based tapes) or stretching (on polyester tapes,) and general malfunction that could ruin the whole show in an instant. (i.e.: the infamous Ed Sullivan appearances of the DC5 and Paul Revere & The Raiders where such mishaps did happen...on LIVE TV!) If the CBS people at it's flagship NYC broadcast facility had issues dealing with a playback tape for bands to mime to, what chance would a group have had in a local VW hall in Peoria or an outdoor baseball stadium in Louisville, KY?

    Most importantly, the band would have needed monitors in order to hear the playback. And monitors were something that just didn't exist back in the mid 1960's.

    I'm not going to get into how impossible it would have been to time such a performance. No wireless remote control back then!

    And there was, of course, the unions situation. That adds another layer of problems to the whole idea of live miming.
    Cousin It and jgreen like this.
  16. Bill

    Bill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I think what's much more plausible is having one or more musicians offstage augmenting what was coming from the group in the spotlights.
  17. empirelvr

    empirelvr Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Virginia, USA
    No, just as problematic, if not worse. (This comes from first hand-experience!!)

    I once played a gig with a tribute band I was a member of in 2009. We just lost our bass player unexpectedly so we used an extra musician behind the curtain to help cover up the emergency on-stage member's lack of instrumental ability. The on-stage guy looked *perfect*, sang incredibly well, and completed the illusion we were trying to put over. He just couldn't play the instrument he was holding. If this wasn't a gig planned months in advance, we wouldn't have done the show. We really hated the idea of working like this.

    Disaster time. It was almost impossible to "synch up" with the backstage player because he couldn't see us, we couldn't see him, and in spite of us using tech that made it much easier to hear each other, it still didn't work.

    If we couldn't pull it off in 2009 using tech that people didn't dare dream of having in the mid-1960's, I can't see how it would have been possible to do it in 1965.
    jgreen likes this.
  18. jgreen

    jgreen Forum Resident

    Location:
    St. Louis,MO.
    People who weren't alive at the time don't understand that it just wasn't done! No one would have dreamed of trying it and if they had all their bookings would have been canceled. There were real musicians back then. In every town and city you could find cover bands that sounded as good as the records. They weren't just suburban kids who wanted to have fun, they were talented. Why did Paul Revere and the Raiders go through so many musicians until they formed the classic lineup in'65? Because every personel change made them a better band. If D.C. had been a bad drummer all the business sense in the world could not have gotten him the drum chair in a working band.
  19. Bill

    Bill Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    It should be pointed out that, as noted by Bobby Graham in his autobiography, during sessions, Dave asked him to keep the drumming patterns on the records simple so Dave could duplicate them live. Having seen them live in 1966, I think my 17 year-old mind could have detected any funny business and my recollection is that they played competently, without behind-the-scenes embellishment. Mike, though, was clearly the star, behind that red Vox Continental.
  20. 3ringcircus

    3ringcircus Active Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    Exactly! There was a whole other thread questioning whether or not the Raiders were capable of playing live, based on the fact that their TV appearances were pre-recorded and that there is a lack of live audio recordings from that time period. Just utter nonsense...from folks who are obviously too young to have witnessed the era. The fact is, until the mid-70s, nobody ever faked [non-broadcast] live performances. They wouldn't, they couldn't. The reason why very few live audio recordings are in existence is because quality recorders were bulky, P.A. systems sucked, and the bands usually played facilities where the acoustics weren't any good. Circumstances that would not make a band any less phenomenal.
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
  21. goodiesguy

    goodiesguy Only A Northern Song

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Here they are semi live on their first Sullivan appearance:

  22. goodiesguy

    goodiesguy Only A Northern Song

    Location:
    New Zealand
    The rest of their Sullivan appearances as seen here, are just them singing over the singles:

  23. sewerdog

    sewerdog Well-Known Member

    am I missing something here. I see dave flailing his arms. I hear the bass drum the way he is playing you should hear the snare with each beat when I do hear it it sounds muffled like the dampener was full on and it sounds like I hear a constant hit of the rim on the snare and I hear the floor tom and the cymbal
    EasterEverywhere likes this.
  24. goodiesguy

    goodiesguy Only A Northern Song

    Location:
    New Zealand
    The basic track and backing vocals are are a backing track. Mike's vocals are Live, and the ocasional drum beats can be heard from Dave.

    There's another Sullivan clip of them with the same backing track which proves the above, the backing track fails on that particular video:

  25. goodiesguy

    goodiesguy Only A Northern Song

    Location:
    New Zealand
    Here's a live clip, at least the vocals are live. I had NO IDEA that Lenny Davidson sang lead on this. I always thought it was Mike Smith: