For those of you knowledgeable about Bowie - does anyone know why the 12" Mix of Shining Star wasn't released until 2007? I assume it's a contemporary remix that was never released at the time, perhaps from a cancelled single.
2007 was when they dropped a bunch of digital EPs, some of which were historically accurate to the old 12" singles and EPs, and some which weren't. There is a digital 5-track "Never Let Me Down 12" with "Shining Star (12" Mix)" as item #5. (06:27) Tidal has it for streaming or sale, with a release date of May 2007. I suspect some of the tracks we're talking about were possibly never digitally mastered until 2007.
Haven't heard the live version (yet). I've read people complain that his vocal sounds strained on the studio version but that's intentional. It's meant to be a group on stage at the end of a gig (tonight the Zeroes were singing for you). That's my theory anyway. The new version is great too but it doesn't capture the excitement of the original in all its ragged glory.
I am kind of sad they lost the "ladies and gentleman" bit. I don't think an official live version has ever been released.
Nile was given a co-mastering credit on Let’s Dance, like Visconti in the last box set, in which I wasn’t very pleased with the mastering on the 2017 Berlin albums. I do wonder if Staff was left more to his own devices on Nothing Has Changed, Five Years & WCIBN...I generally really like the sound on those 2014/2015/2016 remasters. Though, I believe Visconti is given a co-mastering credit on some of WCIBN too, but its my understanding there was a difference in his level of input from that set to being more involved with ANCIANT. Haven’t given a critical listen to Tonight and NLMD87 yet, but on first listen I think Tonight May be similar in sound to Let’s Dance, NLMD87 sounded a little better. There is definitely a pretty big disparity In the mastering choices from the 2015/2016’s to the 2017/2018’s IMHO...and I would like to know why that decision was made...listening to 2016 Diamond Dogs now and i just don’t understand why they couldn’t stay Moving in that direction.
My guess also. In the liner notes for Recall4 in the boxset, they state the exact date of publication for each track. This remixed was indeed first published in 2007, and it's the first time it is published on a physical media.
.. if you have and prefer the JPN CD presumably? I listened to flacs of the album at the weekend, not even my vinyl, and did not find it "sludgy" or recognise anything else you describe. I was listening with Focal Clear headphones, which are incredibly transparent and revealing. For anyone who doesnt hold a particular version and format of this version as sacred, or who hasn't got this compression/brickwalling radar or fixation, I would thoroughly recommend it. For anyone listening via waveforms, avoid.
I don't own any of the boxed sets, I only have the 2017/2018 Heroes individual CD, but was thinking about picking up this 80's Box? Yes, I think the 2014 Nothing Has Changed 3CD set sounds stellar, although disc 1 was remastered by Vic A. and sounds even more modern/compressed than discs 2 & 3 which were remastered by Ray Staff, although the bass is missing from the Heathen tracks on NHC...I was surprised Vic didn't catch that, but I also bought the Legacy 2CD set and the Heathen tracks are rich with bass on that one...go figure! I did try out the 2015 Hunky Dory individual CD, but for some reason, didn't like how a couple of the tracks sounded on that one, I'll probably pick up the 80s Box at some point soon, but a shame that Lets Dance doesn't sound stellar.
The fact that Visconti did hi-res digitising of the albums for the David Bowie Is mega mashup may have something to do with that, plus his involvement with YA. Having different albums digitised, remixed, remastered at the same time and/or for a box set in general probably isn't ideal. David Bowie has been known since the early 70's as the artist who was different with every new album. Different studios, musicians, personnel all contribute to that. In an ideal world those individual characteristics of albums should be treasured in every future preparation for re-release.
Sorry, I don't hold any particular version as sacred (if you knew my posts on the forum you'd recognize that), nor do I "listen via waveforms". I was just comparing two releases that I happen to have on hand; my experience with this album (I previously had the SACD, and a vinyl LP -kept the JPN CD), and my experience as an audio engineer, all play a part... To my ears, the 2018 mastering is detrimental to the sound of the music and would rather recommend people to look for (or compare) older versions if they are so inclined. That's cool if you can enjoy the 2018 remaster on its own, but don't assume things, it's insulting in some cases.
Perhaps it’s the actual word “sludgy”. I learned from having friends over that we can use the same word to articulate sometimes quite different sonic attributes. I certainly wouldn’t understand sludgy to describe what I hear but then I’m not good at these descriptions anyway. As I posted above if you can hear no difference between album and single Let’s Dance, this set will sound wonderful for you. .sjb
I'm not a native English speaker, perhaps 'thick' is a better word? The lower midrange has been boosted, and the compression + limiting pumps and squeezes everything together, which gives me that "sludgy", airless impression. It's not unlike the Low-Lodger masterings from the previous box. If you don't hear anything detrimental to that approach, then enjoy, by all means.
I think "sludgy" is an accurate term to describe "The Gouster". Like it a lot, but it might sound better if it was tonally more similar to (RCA) Young Americans. (Haven't heard 2018 Let's Dance yet, just thought the term very apt for TG.)
I was just searching to find the same. I think it is fair to say one could enjoy this despite the quality. It’s just a disappointing legacy. .sjb
I mentioned this earlier in the thread. The common denominator here is Ray Staff, not Visconti or Rodgers. It's safe to assume, imo, that ultimately you're hearing the version he wants. If not, then why couldn't Visconti and Rodgers do the mastering themselves, it's obvious they are more than capable. To be honest I'm not sure what Staff is bringing to the table given the caliber of those given co-credit. I think you've hit a wall where words are inadequate to describe sound. I'm with you, "sludgy" is not a word I'd use to describe Let's Dance or Tonight. That said, I believe I was the first person in the thread to note that Let's Dance is certainly compressed. You can hear it from the first note, I'm afraid. There's really no getting away from it. That said, the issue is whether it sounds "good" or not. For that it's down to personal opinion. I think it's okay. Clearly not perfect, but yes, you can listen to it without problem. The earlier CD people are lauding is cheap to pick up, so if you prefer that one there's no problem. To be honest - four boxes in to the campaign - we all know what we're going to get from the next. I can tell you right now - whatever is going to be in the next box will be compressed. It's that simple. Dreams otherwise are ill-founded and unwise, and yu're setting yourself up for disapointment. LOL. This really says it all. Different ears. For me Hunky Dory may well be the best mastered album in this entire run of box sets thus far. I hope no-one wrote that. Music will always be ethereal, there is no "one way". People enjoy different aspects of music, and as music fans we should at least accept that without rancor. Come on, we all know that if every album in this box were DR20, someone would have posted: These are okay, but too quiet! You know it! With respect, you seem to be suggesting this is the last time we'll ever get these. No way is that the case, imo.
This is a ridiculous statement. Producers are not mastering engineers. 40+ years of mastering experience (including many beloved original pressings) is what Staff brought to the table. Just Google him It's nice that co-producers are given credit for these album remasters, but Staff is the one doing tape transfers, aligning and testing machines, supervising the signal chain and cutting the vinyl lacquers. Of course he could do all that on his own but Parlophone invited Visconti and Rodgers (and even, for Tonight, Hugh Padgham) to be involved and give their input on the final product
Context. Context is everything. What's the topic? The Bowie boxes. What's the opinion of some regarding these boxes? Disappointment. So what has Staff brought to the table in this case? I think your response is a knee-jerk reaction, out of contect, and is therefore, yes, ridiculous.
I simply doesn’t get it. Ok, fair enough, the critics are dissapointed. But we are 4 (FOUR!) boxes in now, in this series. How on earth did you expect this one to be differently mastered to the previous three ones? The Parlophone team obviously thinks these boxes shall sound in a certain way. I think, and correct me if I’m wrong here, that the critics are angry that these boxes doesn’t sound as they want: like the originals. Right?
Who should we point a finger at then? Nile, Visconti, Staff or Parlophone? I have mentioned previously, I am happy with these releases. However, I did not own anything older than Blackstar on vinyl (everything else on CD). I find the ‘extras’ to be worth more than one listen. Additionally, the NLMD 2018 has far surpassed my expectations-I think the time and investment clearly shows and was worth it (to me). Many people have stated “this version is better than that version”. I have to admit, I skip past all of that. At times, it reads to me that people are justifying the extra 5x, 10x or 15x extra cost paid, at the same time I recognise that’s what makes certain items more collectible. I accept that not everything will be to taste. That’s what makes music so powerful- it can move many whilst having no effect on some. Back to the mastering, of particular note is the comparison of the various Let’s Dance releases. I’m in the process of looking at the vinyl. I’ve run my copy through Pro Tools and I see plenty of movement in the meters, the tracks don’t just sit at -3db or 0db constantly. Furthermore, I just don’t think old mastering techniques would sit well next to current releases. Which makes me question, has individual mastering considerations been applied to the various releases? For example, CD, Vinyl and streaming. I do know that Spotify, iTunes and Tidal all apply their own normalisation after you submit a track to them. They all try to keep the levels the same on each relevant platform. I also wonder if current masters cater more for people with setups that don’t use EQ, more simplified set ups if you like. The extra headroom afforded allowing the user to dial in their own EQ settings or preferences. We also have to understand that material from the 1960s cannot be mixed or mastered with the same approach as music from the 1970s and 1980s. Synthesisers shouldn’t be mixed the same way as guitars. Which brings me to Heroes and Low. One fact that we can confirm is Tony Visconti was in the room when these tracks were being recorded and mixed. If you listen to a vintage synthesiser such as the EMS Synthi AKS, Minimoog, ARP Odyssey or 2600, ARP/Solina string ensemble, Chamberlin and Farfisa organ (on "LOW") it is warm, rich and very bass heavy, especially in the lower registers where most of the tracks are performed. Compare that to something by Vangelis (Blade Runner or Chariots of Fire), performed in higher registers then yes, the sound is bright, crisp and clean. That’s the beauty of analog synthesisers and their digitally modelled counterparts. At the end of the day, I’m happy with this campaign. I know a lot have cried out for demos, but I rarely listen to demos more than once (I will listen to NLMD 2018 more than this). I have only listened to the Let’s Dance demo twice for example. Anyway, I’m off to appreciate some more of the new box set. I will share my analysis of the vinyl shortly if anyone is interested. I will check the intersample peak detection in ozone out of interest.
