DCC CD vs. LP

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by AliMorid, May 14, 2002.

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  1. AliMorid

    AliMorid New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marin County, Ca
    Hi guys, I'm a newbie here. I'm excited to see such great artists received such delicate attention. It's great! What I'm wondering is: I have cd capabilities in my current setup and plan to add vinyl in the future (P3,P25, or other). I've read the posts about how amazing the Roy Orbison, Elvis, Nat King Cole, & Ray Charles DCC Cd's are and am ready to get as many of them as is possible now. But it sorta strikes me that this music would just benefit to be heard on vinyl. What do people think? Better to get the vinyl and just hold on to them until I get a turntable (OK that sorta sounds dumb) or just buy the cd's and enjoy them now. People who own the same DCC album on CD and Vinyl: Which version do you listen to most often and why? Are the components better? Is the sound better? Is vinyl the only way to listen to the above artists. I am hoping to buy these as the temporary-be-all-end-all versions, as these artists will probably not see any better treatment for a long time. That's why I don't mind holding out for vinyl if that's where it's at. Thanks!
     
  2. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    You are going to get two sets of answers, one that says digital is the one, and the other that says vinyl all the way.
    Steve Hoffman will tell you that all else being equal, the CD and the vinyl should have the same tonality.

    I say, if you don't have the turntable now, and don't have the vinyl, why bother? It's DCC! The CD will sound the same as the LP minus the surface noise and potential clicks and pops. If you have the money to burn, go for vinyl.
     
  3. ArneW

    ArneW Senior Member

    Location:
    Cologne, Germany
    Grant wrote:

    And boy, you'll really need lots of it, that's for sure! :(

    Arne
     
  4. martinimaster

    martinimaster New Member

    Location:
    east coast
    Why not go for both? I've ab'ed the NKC and feel that the cd is 95% as good as the vinyl. I listen to both, Cd in the car,bathroom,jogging,beach,vacation,anywhere else I don't have a TT. However When I get to My living room it's the records that get played. Part of it might be watching the stylus on the record.In any event my DCC Lp'sare dead quiet. If you have'nt played a record lately you will be amazed at the sound. It's almost the like when you first heard CD,only it will be the absence of harshness that will strike you.Anyway,
    Enjoy!
     
  5. martinimaster

    martinimaster New Member

    Location:
    east coast
    Bear in mind that my set up consists of an SCD 777 for cd's and sacd's and a Dual cs5000 With a Sure V15 aproximately 15 years old. A new set up might blow the cd's away.( still saving up)
     
  6. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Yeah, that's only because certain compromises must be made to cut the LP, which could mean compression or cutting the top end, which results in the LP sounding mellower. The CD is just able to preserve more of that high end. Oh, don't be mislead-most LPs peter out at 15 or 16kHz. Just because an LP's frequency response is capable of reaching much higher than a CD doedn't mean it does in reality. Even if it does, and your cartridge and speakers respond that high, most of your other associated gear will probably top off at around 20,000kHz, hmmmmm, right around where digital gear cuts off!
     
  7. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Both formats are great. Perhaps just choose what will make you happy...

    Todd
     
  8. Sam

    Sam Senior Member

    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Grant is giving you only part of the statement that Steve Hoffman made. While he did say that the tonality should be the same between cd and vinyl, he ALSO said that vinyl will have more of a presence about it. The sound will come across with more of the room reveberation and less "sterile" sounding than cd. I believe he said something about more "magic" (ala 3d imaging) happening with an lp vs cd. Ask Steve or Tom port. My own experiences between the two show this to be true. And as far as cd "preserving" more of the high frequencies that Grant talks about, well, if what I heard in the upper frequencies on cd's is what is supposed to be there, then I'll take the lp anytime. A lot depends on your choice of table, arm and cartridge. And don't just take my word for it. Check out the latest Stereophile interiew with MARK LEVINSON (did I spell his name right?). He comments on how many people have walked into his Red Rose storefront in Manhatten saying how they have just "stopped listening" to music over time because of the fatigue brought on by cd listening. Mark states, just like Steve Hoffman, that vinyl has something within it that makes listening all the more real. That's not me talking, but the well respected Mark Levinson.
     
  9. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    In my case, I buy whatever I can find! I'd never pass up a DCC on CD or LP as old stock can be very hard to find.

    And, as an example, DCC's Madman Across the Water was only released on LP! And it's very hard to find!

    Take my advice, AliMorid! Buy 'em all, in whatever format you find them in!

    Or resell 'em to me :D .
     
  10. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    It's true. Better TT and cartridge set up will help yeild superb LP playback, IF the vinyl was cut well from a well-mastered source. To many of us, this sometimes means $$ we may or may not have.

    As far as presence is concerned, there are just too many variables in any given system, room, or ears of the listener to say that one format will definately give you more of this or that. Steve can only speak for his system or what he has heard. Personal preference comes into play here, so again. too many variables to draw a conclusion from what a few people say.
     
  11. Beagle

    Beagle Senior Member

    Location:
    Ottawa
    An LP's first track probably goes to about 18kHz. Towards the end of the last cut on a side, it's probably around 10kHz. But we are looking at something musical and the high frequency cut-off still falls just within the limits of most peoples hearing. With a CD, the inherent distortions of redbook are there from start to finish. The CD format that can make LPs sound better, even with their own built-in flaws. Most LP flaws live outside the music they can provide. A CD's flaws are built into the music and can't be ignored.

    But we've een thru this before right? ;)
     
  12. Grant

    Grant Life is a rock, but the radio rolled me!

    Oh, I don't think so! LP surface noise, clicks, pops, and the alterations of the frequency spectrum fall well within the usable musical range and my hearing!


    Yes, we have!
    ;)
     
  13. Sam

    Sam Senior Member

    Location:
    Rochester, NY
    Ticks and pops are not a problem with well cared for vinyl. Properly cleaned lp's will play very silent. Damaged lp's are, of course, a different story. As far as frequency spectrum is concerned, are you saying that master tape to cd transfers don't in some way alter the frequency? I know I have heard many people say they can hear differences between cd's produced at different pressing plants!
     
  14. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Often brand new vinyl will have ticks and pops...
     
  15. Beagle

    Beagle Senior Member

    Location:
    Ottawa
    Grant, yes they are audible but what I meant is that they are not "built in" to the music, they don't change the timbre of musical instruments the way CD can. So when you hear a naturally musical sound which washes over your soul, you can tune some surface noise out after a while. If the sound of the instruments is altered by the format or poor mastering, it is not easy to tune them out since the instruments will sound wrong from the get-go. I have some LP's that are unlistenable because the surface noise or scratches due to abuse (used records owned by other people) are as loud as the music. But I can still hear that the sound is "right", despite the noise. I am content with the sound of most well recorded/mastered CD's released in the last couple of years. Most of my complaints about current CD's have nothing to do with the format, it's the bozos behind the mixing and mastering boards.

    I recently picked up Weather Report "Heavy Weather" SACD recently and I now realize that we are getting very close to a quiet undistorted musical format.
     
  16. Sckott

    Sckott Hand Tighten Only.

    Location:
    South Plymouth, Ma
    It's the way that you listen. Grant's a steadfast digital fan. I love vinyl, but if the Cd has something special to it, I'll surely say so. I could sit here and say you can usually find a decent CD that you'll fall in love with, but the same applies to LPs.

    One strong hand that LP seems to pull it's weight for is cheapness among the used racks. The happiness I get in buying a normal LP for $5 or less that comes out with amazing sonics is just a pleasure to me. Audiophiles are coming out with more use in the turntable departments. Ask anyone who's been at the shows recently. The other allure for vinyl is the true analog taste. Tweeks also seem to run high for vinyl playback from the cleaner you're using, to the arm, cart, what you place it on to the platter. All of this is more than not...interchangeable.

    I'll go for weeks just listening to Cds, then go into a record store in Boston and drive away with heaps of vinyl. I may find a clunker in the mess, but very rarely.

    With the format you listen to, you'll find the beauty and the harshess with whatever you listen to. The "software" is the key component that makes your music shine. Most people with a $250 stereo can usually tell the difference between an audiophile title and a normal one. Then someone with tubes, tweeks and bloops can say the same. Cds have a wonderful sound and amazing dynamic range. Lps of yester-decade always had one thing going for them... the engineer cutting it had to stay within the lines. It doesn't mean that he *had* to though!
     
  17. Scott Wheeler

    Scott Wheeler Forum Resident

    Location:
    ---------------
    AliMorid,
    If you are planning to get a turntable it is never too soon to start buying quality LPs. They tend to go out of print and way up in price.
    As for the debate on which sounds better. I welcome anybody with their CD players and CDs to come on over and show me that what they have can sound as good or better than LP's. Many CD players and CD's have come through my door and every one of them has been shown the door.
     
  18. RDK

    RDK Active Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles, CA
    You say tomato, I say tomahto...

    Analog vs. digital... give it up already!!!
     
  19. Uncle Al

    Uncle Al Senior Member

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Kudos to Grant for predicting where this was going in the second post of this thread.

    Everybody calm down. Remember the purpose behind it all. Everybody go home tonight and listen to the Allman Brothers Fillmore East Concert (specific album or format of your choice - even available in surround for those inclined) and play air guitar till you collapse. Quiz tomorrow on your best air guitar moment while you were listening.
     
  20. feinstein

    feinstein Member

    Location:
    Detroit, MI
    One huge advantage of the vinyl format is the packaging size. Artwork of classic '50's, '60's, and '70's albums was not meant to be viewed in a 5"x5" square (or whatever the size of a CD jewelcase is). Even though the DCC CD's packaging was quite an accurate 5"x5" facsimile of the original LP (e.g. "Pet Sounds"), the thrill of 12"x12" artwork is still hard to resist.


    On the other hand:

    I have a copy of every DCC vinyl album that the company produced, and I clean them before playing on a Nitty-Gritty. However, the vinyl quality is quite variable. Sometimes, the surfaces are totally quiet. Other times, there's quite a few ticks and pops. I don't think that cleaning GUARANTEES a quiet playback.

    Each DCC vinyl pressing was individually numbered via a sticker on the case. I don't know if earlier pressings were numbered lower or not, but I have pressings that were numbered 200 or lower that still were very noisy and higher numbered pressings that were very quiet.
     
  21. Todd Fredericks

    Todd Fredericks Senior Member

    Location:
    A New Yorker
    Feinstein,

    I've noticed this myself and it can be annoying but I think Steve explained that it has to do with RTI (or any other pressing company) working with raw vinyl. Sometimes they're brilliant batches and sometimes not. I think and hope RTI does their best to ensure quality but sometimes lemons can slip through the cracks...

    Todd
     
  22. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    Finally, an indisputable retort from Mr. Feinstein to end, once and for all, the digital / vinyl debate! You simply have not lived until you've seen a 12X12 picture of Linda Ronstadt or Emmylou Harris! ;) Of course I am also the guy who brought his binoculars to the Linda Ronstadt concert (polka-dot dress tour) because the 10th row was not close enough!

    And have you ever seen a poster stuffed into a jewel case? Sad...

    Uncle AL, I'll be ready for tomorrow's quiz although I only turn into the best, most awsome air guitar player on the planet after quite a few beers! And I'm sure the more sober witnesses who dispute my talents in this area are just jealous. My only problem is remembering what exactly my 'moves' were.... :D

    Scott, if I bring my CD player AND Technics turntable, will you let me in the door? ;) I think you'll see my point if I do... you must have an awesome TT! :)
     
  23. Gary

    Gary Nauga Gort! Staff

    Location:
    Toronto
    I think it was bad batches of raw vinyl that was / is the culprit. RTI always does their best with what they have.....
     
  24. Tullman

    Tullman Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston MA
    vinyl

    Sam hit on this in an earlier post. The big advantage lps have over cds is listening fatigue. I can sit for hours on end listening to vinyl. After an hour or two with cds, listening fatigue sets in.

    Cds have it all over lps for convenience.
     
  25. AliMorid

    AliMorid New Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Marin County, Ca
    I didn't mean to start a cd vs. vinyl debate. I ordered the cd's for instant gratification. I was just thinking that older music, like Elvis, Roy, & Nat, would maybe just be more appropriate on vinyl...all other things being equal (the mastering process). Thanks for all the input!
     
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