Dedicated lines for power

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Brian Gupton, Jun 18, 2015.

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  1. John R Leddy

    John R Leddy Active Member

    Location:
    England
    I can't see how else he would preserve his professional integrity and reputation.
    With the circuit cables entering the consumer unit and utilising the same supply?
    Isn't the consumer's earth terminal connected to a clamp on the metal sheath of the main service cable?
     
  2. GuildX700

    GuildX700 Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    So much BS, so little time.

    You need sufficient power available via proper wire gauge and associated good clean connections for the load presented, noise on the power grid may or may not be able to be addressed depending what/how bad it is and your ground/grid situation.

    I have dedicated 20 amp service to 2 of my rigs as one with 2 large amps pulls a fair amount of juice.

    Things only really cleaned up for me though when the entire town was rewired on a new grid several years back, no more brownouts no more unusual hum/obvioius noise issues. If you are stuck on an ancient power grid there is little help/hope.

    The dream of amazingly superior sonices via a tricked out 110 receptical is a frightening view of the insanity some folks take audio reproduction to. I'm ashamed to even hear such nonsense being posted.

    By the way, porcelain wire nuts deliver the consummate delineation of texture and detail when driving complex loads under flip flop electrical engineering conditions whilst maintaining the utmost discreet presentation of sublime palatable midrange voicing.

    And any "scientific papers" or "facts" offered by a vendor are at the VERY LEAST to be taken with a grain of salt. Remember, they have a vested interest in convincing you to buy their product, any which way they can. No one is vetting the "facts" they present. Yes, it all sounds so very scientific. So did the "facts" about many other things being sold for decades. A fool and his money are soon parted.
     
    Gumboo, johnscousin, jimbutsu and 5 others like this.
  3. GuildX700

    GuildX700 Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    So much BS, so little time.

    You need sufficient power available via proper wire gauge and associated good clean connections for the load presented, noise on the power grid may or may not be able to be addressed depending what/how bad it is and your ground/grid situation.

    I have dedicated 20 amp service to 2 of my rigs as one with 2 large amps pulls a fair amount of juice.

    Things only really cleaned up for me though when the entire town was rewired on a new grid several years back, no more brownouts no more unusual hum/obvioius noise issues. If you are stuck on an ancient power grid there is little help/hope.

    The dream of amazingly superior sonices via a tricked out 110 receptical is a frightening view of the insanity some folks take audio reproduction to. I'm ashamed to even hear such nonsense being posted.

    By the way, porcelain wire nuts deliver the consummate delineation of texture and detail when driving complex loads under flip flop electrical engineering conditions whilst maintaining the utmost discreet presentation of sublime palatable midrange voicing.

    And any "scientific papers" or "facts" offered by a vendor are at the VERY LEAST to be taken with a grain of salt. Remember, they have a vested interest in convincing you to buy their product, any which way they can. No one is vetting the "facts" they present. Yes, it all sounds so very scientific. So did the "facts" about many other things being sold for decades. A fool and his money are soon parted.
     
    Dentdog and Vidiot like this.
  4. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    That's very true. Anybody who has a vested interest in presenting only one side of an argument is suspect. But there's always the chance they're being honest. For example, Shure published many technical papers on phono cartridges in their time, and I can't recall them ever slanting the results in favor of their own products. They also contributed quite a few AES papers during the 1960s and 1970s.

    But I think getting back to the o.p.'s question: getting clean power is really the most important thing. I believe this is more important than the tiny fractional changes you'll get with different wiring, different plugs, and different sockets. I'm not saying there aren't differences there -- only that I'm skeptical anybody can hear them. But clean power is a real thing. I've worked for post houses with awfully dirty power, and we had a never-ending miasma of pain with hum, noise, static, clicks, pops, even equipment shutdowns all due to bad power. Once they spent massive amounts of money on filters and UPS devices, 90% of the problems went away.
     
    showtaper and GuildX700 like this.
  5. GuildX700

    GuildX700 Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I'm sure we are on the same page.

    Shure certainly had some sound history to back up their claims, some of these modern vendors and their claims are so suspect it is not even funny.

    Line power can be a very complex issue when dealing with sensitive electronics, a thick, expensive replacement power cord or a high priced receptical are most likely the last answer to solving REAL power line issues.

    A simple answer of a cord or outlet sounds very enticing, but reality most often proves answers like that for line power issues are nonsense and are simply filling the pockets of vendors who have no care for the consumer, only their profits.

    Just becaue a vendor makes claims and has their "facts" to back up their product does not make it true.

    Snake oil is not a new product, it's just sold in many new "forms".
     
    showtaper and Cubdriver like this.
  6. johnHS

    johnHS Forum Resident

    I've got close to 25 years in the electrical field. What I have done for some customers is start by making sure that things such as the microwave and kitchen appliance circuits as well as gas furnaces are on the same leg in the electrical panel while the audio circuit is on the other leg. This can help with noise. For 240 volt gas packs and other heating units try swapping the conductors on the circuit breaker if noise is still a problem. I wouldn't run anything more that 12/2 romex to a dedicated receptacle unless we're talking a good distance from the panel. Make sure that your new dedicated circuit is on the other leg in the panel. Have all work done by a licensed electrician with a good reputation. I've seen it all and you get what you pay for.
     
    Ventoux, BayouTiger, ggergm and 2 others like this.
  7. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Oh hell, just make sure the damn thing's safe...
     
    John R Leddy and Tore Pedersen like this.
  8. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Personally, if I walk out in the back yard and look at the two poles at the houses left and right of me, they both have big transformers. One is new, one very old. I suspect that they are a primary source of noise in the lines.

    As mentioned previously, I have dedicated 20 amp lines with a 20 amp conditioner. I can monitor the noise coming off my phono preamp with loading plugs on the input rather than a cartridge, and see where the noise floor sits at any given moment, which is usually about -95 db over most of the frequency spectrum with a little hash here or there. Now if I take my amp off the conditioner and go directly into the wall, the situation is much worse. Even with dedicated lines, I still have the refrigerator, dehumidifier, dimmer switches, etc, all going into the same panel.
     
  9. LeeS

    LeeS Music Fan

    Location:
    Atlanta
    This is why the hardware forum has lost so many experienced posters. If one shares their experience with better quality power products, there is immediate criticism by people with little or more often no experience. And most of the folks here are pretty unpersuaded by any vendor literature or claims...that only matters when the performance matches the rhetoric. And some vendors are good people and can actually show the improvement with measurements.

    Too often here we witness closed minds to the new technology or techniques for getting the best sound out of our systems.

    Everything matters in audio from AC quality to component isolation to every step in the recording and playback chain.

    To call "BS" on member's experiences and opinions just takes away from the forum.
     
    jfeldt, Dmann201, triple and 4 others like this.
  10. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Calling out the unsubstantiated "science " is fine and fair. Get me something like Crown who do good stuff on amplification then yes, I'm all for it. Some BS white paper that's really marketing blurb on the other hand, then we're right to pass on it. That's a service to other posters and potential buyers.
     
    Billy Infinity likes this.
  11. jea48

    jea48 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest, USA
    That is bad advice.

    Here is a video showing how the 120/240V single phase, split phase, transformer works that feeds the typical residential home in the US.



    After watching the video post back your thoughts.....
     
    Last edited: Jun 21, 2015
  12. johnHS

    johnHS Forum Resident

    Thank you for explaining how a transformer works. I don't get why you think it's bad advice to put a dedicated 20amp receptacle for audio purposes on the other leg of a panel different from the small appliance circuits and gas heat. How is that going to imbalance the neutral coming from the transformer? We're talking 3 to 4 single pole circuits here assuming they're all not part of a multi branch circuit and sharing a 12 awg neutral. Your demonstration showed 16 gauge? lamp cord. A typical service (200 amp) has 2/0 copper or 4/0 aluminum coming from the meter base. It's worked for me and no one has complained yet.
     
  13. jea48

    jea48 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest, USA
    I don't.

    What I do object to is moving 120V loads, that are considered to be noisy, to one Line, leg, so the audio equipment can be fed from the other 120V Line, leg, to neutral.

    First when the house was original wired the electrician balanced the 120V loads across each Line of the panel. Why, simple answer, because NEC says so.

    Granted all the 120V appliance feeds that may have been moved to one Line, leg, may not be running at the time, but sometimes they do.

    If you and others got anything out of the video I hope it was clear only the imbalanced load returns on the service neutral conductor to the power utility transformer. The balanced 120V L1 to neutral bar and 120V L2 to neutral bar are in series with one another. What does that do to your theory of moving all the noisy loads to the opposite line of the audio fed Line? Is it possible some of the current of the noisy equipment is in series with the audio equipment?

    And how about that 240V central air conditioner?
     
  14. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    This is my panel at the moment. Keep in mind I live in a home built in 1928 that was bought and refurbished, so things are pretty much just code as opposed to actually practical. Outside of the kitchen and bathrooms, all the (ungrounded) outlets seem to be on one 20amp circuit. I guess the two blank spots under the laundry are available circuits?

    [​IMG][/URL][/IMG] [​IMG]
     
  15. vinylbuff

    vinylbuff Forum Resident

    Location:
    North Port Florida

    He seemed to know what he was talking about and what he was doing.
    Yes, the same supply was used.
    I have a transformer directly outside my house grounded to a rod at the base of the pole, and the service is grounded directly to a rod outside directly below my meter.
     
  16. Hipper

    Hipper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Herts., England
    'Worse thing for audio circuit is conductors pulled loosely in a conduit.'

    Does this mean a cable stored in a (plastic) conduit is not good? Why?

    What if the cable is attached to the wall with cleats?
     
  17. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    Yes, but you're probably down to one available circuit as you are clearly missing the Champagne circuit. That is pretty much mandatory under code to go with the Reefer circuit. ;)

     
    Robert C and Vidiot like this.
  18. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    I am a huge fan of the dedicated reefer circuit, which is actually part of the electrical code here in northern California.
     
  19. captwillard

    captwillard Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville
    How would a dedicated line differ from investing in a power regenerator like a PS power plant?
     
    triple likes this.
  20. jea48

    jea48 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Midwest, USA
    LOL, I need to do a better job of proof reading before I post a response.

    Not sure what you mean by stored in plastic conduit.
    Do you mean a factory manufactured cable assembly like MN-B sheathed cable?
    http://www.southwire.com/products/RomexSIMpullTypeNMBOEM.htm

    If you look at the physical construction of MN-B sheathed cable you see the conductors, wires, are tightly grouped together in such a manner with the Hot and neutral current carrying conductors on each side of the safety equipment grounding conductor. The opposing magnetic fields cancel one another so there is not an induced voltage transfer to the equipment grounding conductor.

    Or do you mean individual wires randomly loosely installed in a PVC, plastic, conduit?
    IF this is what you mean the randomly loosely installed hot and neutral current carrying conductors, wires, are more likely to induce a voltage onto the safety equipment grounding conductor.

    Now if the hot and neutral conductors are twisted together first before they are installed in the conduit along with the equipment grounding conductor then the opposing magnetic fields of the current carrying wires would cancel out one another.
    Note.... In the US I am not sure this method would meet NEC Code.

    http://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf

    Quote from page 31.


    Overview of Audio System Grounding & Interfacing
    Bill Whitlock, 9/4/2012
    The “Conduit Transformer”

    This finally explains what drives 99% of all ground loops!

    Load current in line and neutral produces opposing magnetic fields
    since instantaneous current flow is in opposite directions

    Imperfect cancellation magnetically induces voltage over the
    length of the nearby safety ground conductor

    Strongly affected by geometry and proximity of wires

    Highest voltages with randomly positioned wires in conduit

    Lower voltages with uniform geometry of Romex
    ®

    Voltage is directly proportional to
    load current, wire length, and rate of change in current or
    ∆I/∆t

    Mechanism favors high-frequency harmonics of 60 Hz

    For constant current in L and N, induced voltage rises at 6 dB/octave

    See pages 31 through 36

    >>>>>>>>

    It is also the reason why a dedicated branch circuit should never occupy the same conduit or cable assembly with other circuits.
     
  21. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Hi Jeff

    Sorry for the slow reply but I have been away on a business trip and haven't had the time to catch up.

    Thanks for asking, rather than assuming that there was no reason to do what I have done. First off, I should have mentioned that although my outlets are 20 amp, I had ordered 15 amp versions and simply didn't bother with the return process. It wasn't a plan to have it end up that way.

    Next, I read an article on (I think) Audiogon about designing head room into your dedicated circuits. The theory was to use massively over 'rated' wire to ensure that the system never ran short of power during s transient. Their idea was to have one dedicated line for the power amp and have a massive 4 gauge wire. The other gear would go to a separate dedicated line and to use 8 gauge wire (if I recall correctly). It was a new idea but the author was impressed with the end result. The article seemed reasonable to me, but I went with the poor mans version.

    I got lucky and had a really good technician take the time to fit the 8 gauge wire with no pigtail connections. It is one cable with no breaks between the circuit breaker panel and the dedicated outlets.

    This is the third time that I have installed dedicated circuits and each time I have been pleased with the results.

    For the record, I have been at this hobby for about 35 years and I try to keep an open mind and to try each change with an open mind. I would definitely do the same again. If someone else feels that they wouldn't spend the time or effort, that's fine by me : )
     
  22. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I use both. Each one improved the sound in my system.
     
  23. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Sorry I am so late to reply, but I have been out of country. Your reason of only $100 difference, was why I used it, despite all of the Internet experts.
     
  24. GuildX700

    GuildX700 Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I'd LOVE to se how 8 gauge fits into a standard receptical. Pics.... PLEASE!
     
  25. John R Leddy

    John R Leddy Active Member

    Location:
    England
    Makes me appreciate the neatness of our system here in the UK. These transformers I see on posts, is this where your neutral centre tap is created? Out of curiousity, what voltage is being supplied along the power lines before these transformers?

    I gave up on the thread and had a hunt over the internet to get an idea of the consumer units you guys use. I'm guessing the idea of having both 120 volt and 240 volt supplies over the same system is one of efficiency and economics? Overall less voltage required to service the system compared to our singular 240 volts?

    Even though your consumer units have two rails compared to our one, both seem to share the same feature that neither provide isolation between internal circuits. Circuits may be described as dedicated but they are still interactive with all other circuits within the building. I think I've got that right?

    I think the original poster's ambitions may have already been achieved within the power supply of hi-fi component itself. Certainly, from what I'm understanding of these posts, what's being sought is already contained within the design of the power supply and importantly, after its mains transformer rather than before it.

    Strictly speaking, we should be able to chuck any old supply at the component and have it perform in a satisfactory manner. In my mind, it's the responsibility of the manufacturer to ensure his product functions correctly in its expected environment, and not a required consideration for house builders or electricians, and certainly not a further duty for the end-user.
     
    Brother_Rael likes this.
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