Deja Vu: CD-R of the LP--the listening experience...

Friends,

Forum member Todd Fredericks kindly shipped me a CD-R of Deja Vu for critical listening. This "exchange" came about because of the the many recent threads about CDs v. Vinyl and the merits and shortcomings of both formats. I have sent Todd a couple of CD-Rs that I have mastered using my process and methods from tracks taken exclusively from CDs.

Todd did what I would describe as a "straight transfer" without further processing, de-clicking, maximizing, etc, etc. Here is his equipment:

VPI HW-19 MK III Turntable
Well Tempered Arm (pederson mod)
Dynavector 10x4 cartridge
Acoustech PH-1 phonostage
DiY Beldon 89259 interconnects w/ Daytona locking RCA plugs
Apogee Acoustics Wydeeyee S/PDIF cable
Tascam DA-20 DAT recorder
PC--Pentium III, 800mhz, 512 SRAM, 20 & 40gig HD 7,200
Gina 20 bit sound card
Sound Forge 4.5 & CD Architect

The Listening Experence

I played back the CD-R on my big system, unprocessed, using my HHB Professional CD Recorder, on a BOSE Wave Radio here in my office, in the car and on my girlfriend's JVC mini-component system. I also listened to it though my TEAC X-1000R Reel recorder under the "cans" in the monitor mode.

Generally, I really like the sound of the LP transfer. It was not maximized or mastered "hot". There is audible tape hiss. Certainly, in my opinon, I heard analog warmth. More importantly, I heard textures, layers and a very natural, musical sound. The Bose Wave Radio really likes the sound of the CD-R. On the big system there were more "issues" as I would expect. It is less forgiving. A number of tracks on Todd's used LP suffer from wear and groove wall distortion. This was, however, only a distraction on Woodstock. That aside, the following are listening notes on a number of the tracks:

Carry On: To my ears, the real star of the CD-R. I love the song but, more importantly, I love the sound on this track. While it was pretty compressed during recording, it comes alive on this LP. It has more depth, definition on the low end, very smooth and comfortable mid-range and the highs are just right. It has more texture and is lessed veiled than other version that I own on CD. It has a attractive "steamy" quality. The best version of Carry On that I have heard in years, to be honest.

Teach Your Children: It is very smooth sounding with textures and layers. It has a certain "shimmer". The vocals are really outstanding and very smooth. Clearly, the sound brings back memories of the way I originally listened to the track all those years ago.

Almost Cut My Hair: A little less appealing but still a pleasure to listen to. The cymbals have a nice "shimmer". The deepest low end is absent but the mid bass a very clean and well defined. Because of the mastering on the LP there is more LP mastering compression than I would like.

Woodstock: Wear and groove wall distortion aside, this the most unfulfilling track on the CD-R transfer. The deepest low end is clearly missing. The mid-bass is rather week. There is too much compression as a result of the LP mastering. The mid-range is very good, upfront and musical. The highs are fine except during the loudest passages. (It should be noted that a previous owner of the LP obviously played this track to death and may have had an improperly aligned cartridge)

Our House: Another real star! I loved the sound from the opening notes. The vocals have depth, textures and layers. The frequencies are well balanced and all audibly present. It has a three dimensional quality that is very compelling. The dynamics are very good. The sound stage is well-balanced and upfront. Obviously, this track took well to LP mastering. I have listened to at least 10 times since rec eiving the CD-R.


Overview:

I really enjoyed the listening experience of this transfer. The real "star" of the LP is the mid-range, the flat low-end and the sound of the vocals. The down points are dynamic range on some tracks (LP mastering), the missing deeper low-end and, of course, the unavoidable, wear. However, in perspective, I enjoy the sound and found it be very musical. That very quality is paramount to any listening experience. In many ways, critical listening to this transfer reminds me of all the qualities that I like about the sound of LPs and of all the qualities that I do not like about the sound of LPs.

Thanks again to Todd for providing me with the opportunity!

Bob

 

What an excellent post. Thanks Bob and Todd for stepping up to the plate using one of my favourite albums. Just to complete the picture, what CDs of this do you have Bob? The original, latest remaster, MFSL? And what record did Todd use to make the CD-R? Thanks again.

Regards,
Metralla

 

Metralla,

Thanks! Todd recorded the CD to his DAT recorder and then made the CD-R on his computer without processing. I have the original CD release and a remaster from Japan. Both Todd and I felt a listening experience of this nature would be helpful to our on-going discussions here on the digital v. analog debate. Since I enjoy both formats, I attempted to provide an objective account of my listening experience. It was a lot of fun as a project!

Bob

 

Originally posted by Metralla:
What an excellent post. Thanks Bob and Todd.

Yes, I agree. A lot of time on the project, and even more time relating it to us. Thanks!

Was the vinyl the MFSL? Or the Atlantic?

 

Dan,

Todd made the transfer from an Atlantic pressing. Perhaps he will fill us in on more of specific details of that particular pressing! He did say that he acquired it for $1 and that he had used Disc Doctor on the LP to clean it. These are the type of projects that I enjoy, a real pleasure, versus the endless debates, in my opinion, of course!

Thanks!

Bob

 

Bob,

Thanks for your fantastic review of the CD-R. I agree very much with your observations. Other strengths (IMO) I'd like to add with the transfer is that the wonderful presence of each instrument (drums are wow also guitars) and vocals seems to be true to the source vinyl. I find when I do digital processing on stuff like this then most of the time those qualities kind of go away (I can live with some pops/clicks). Yes, I found the vinyl for a $1 at a thrift shop in the city and it's (I believe) the same RSC pressing that Sckott & Tom Port were raving about. It has the drop out on the left channel during 'Almost Cut My Hair'. Again, thank you Bob for your very detailed listening...

Todd

P.S. Total cost of making this experiment is $1 for record, 20 cents for CD-R and shipping to Bob. Not bad...

 

Thanks!

Todd,

Thanks! I really enjoyed the experience and further, I agree with your additional observations. I would suspect that if such a transfer had been completed on a new, well-mastered LP there would have been less distraction but, it is hard for me to believe there would have been startling sonic differences. Certainly, your transfer of the LP was well done and, in my opinion, accurately portrayed the music on the LP.

Thanks again!

Bob

 

Don't keep us all in suspence Bob.

How does it stack up against the latest remaster (Japan?)?

 

Dave,

The Japanese remaster that I referred to in my earlier post was purchased in 1999. It has a very pleasing sound. It is HDCD encoded. The low-end is more deep and fat than the other CD version than I own. It is pretty dynamic. The mid-range could be better. The high end is not overblown which, I like. It does lack some of the textures, layers and shimmer of the CD-R furnished to me by Todd. That is a quick review.

Bob

 

Your description made me drool, as "Deja Vu" is my favorite CSNY album, and I always thought there was better out there than the Atlantic remaster.

I guess i'd better look for the LP.

 

Grant,

Look for the one with "RSC" in the dead-wax. If it's the same later pressing that Sckott & Tom were talking about (which I think it is) then you will be very pleased with it. The copy I found at a thrift shop has these problems (some clicks/groove distortion on 'Woodstock') but the sonics are incredible...

Todd

 

Grant,

These types of experiments are vehicles for expanded understanding and knowledge. Certainly, it had been a long time since I had heard the sound of Deja Vu from an LP.

Bob

 

This pressing of Deja Vu is fairly easy to spot. Just look for the newer pressings, if your eyes are "trained" to know fairly immediately just which issue you find....

(Example, if the album feels soft and has the Atlantic advertsiement as its sleeve showing off album covers of Booker T, Aretha Franklin, that's the wrong one) The basic issue you're looking for has the oval-shaped inner sleeve with the Atlantic logo looking like an oversized watermark on the paper. Check the matrix. The album sounded wonderful. It's possibly the last issues made before Atlantic scrapped issuing LPs like it.

I believe the pressing plant is Specialty. At radio, we got a lot of white labels from that pressing plant, shipped direct to us via label orders to do so.

I found mine for $2.99 or so and I had to use my "soaking" technique with water to bring it back to life, but it's a fairly quiet pressing. I knew there was a reason why I kept listening to it rather than the reissue CD.

Does anyone have the HDCD disc and uses EAC?

 

Sckott, that's the one I made the CD-R from. I got that disc a few months ago and always found myself grabbing that pressing rather than the other ones I have. Last week I played the other pressings and they sound no where as great as this one (very, very thin & lacking life). It does go to show that first pressings are not the be all-end all to superior sonics. Now why couldn't they get the CD's to sound like this (not a format thing/just mastering observation)?? What I'm starting to strongly think is that as time pushes on and the popular taste in making things sound "modern" increases, it's going to become more & more difficult to listen to our cherished albums on new releases and hear them as they were mostly intended to heard. This CD-R I made sounds like CSN&Y. The "official" CD I have kind of sounds like CSN&Y. I'm nervous that later releases (on SACD & DVD-A) will sound "nothing" like CSN&Y. Do you know what I mean?

Todd

 

Why didn't you ask me two weeks ago?

(read: yes)

While I haven't heard said vinyl pressing (hint, hint), the HDCD sounds *really* hissy. Is the high end jacked up that much on this one, or is that the sound of the album?

I've got an LP at home (probably early '70s vintage) and I never thought it was very good - really noisy IIRC.

 

I'll do one of my copy off of the tubes if you want, Luke. I'll no doubt engineer one just for myself.

I'm just curious how the CD is laid down technically (HDCD intact). No copy of Deja Vu is perfect that I've ever heard. My Gastwirt copy sounds great, but it's been Eq'd in places that make the rest of the sonic picture fall to the floor. (Hey, if I ever hear the title song without hiss, I would go "eeek!!")

The album is a masterpiece. Possibly the best work I've heard Steven Stills ever do. I love his solo work too (Stills 1 & 2, Ect)....

This would possibly fair better if remixed and remastered. This is one of those titles that becomes hard to nail perfectly because of the wayit was mixed in the 1st place. Yet again, would I miss the imperfections once "corrected" past the point of familiarity audiophillically? Yeah, I'd freak. That's what I'm most afraid of. Changing history, even with its faults. Mr. Spock would not approve.

 

Hey, that works.

Did you get Who's Next?

I like the HDCD, but it does seem overly bright in places.

Have you seen Stephen Barncard's comments about this? He 1) wants to do a remix, and 2) wants to do everything in his power to make it sound like the original (ie, by putting a copy of the original mix down next to the basic tracks so he can easily A/B, etc).

I posted the comments here a few weeks ago.

 

Who's Next; Yes. Haven't put it to the living room test, but it does sound 100% pure...

Most HDCD Cds do sound a tinge bright n' hot. I'm just curious to what the heck they did.

Yes, that's how I read that article. I'm starting to agree with it more and more, hesitantly.

 

I agree, Sckott! When I did this vinyl transfer I knew I could easily have "corrected" some of the occasional clicks (very faint in quite places/not many) but I can live with it. I didn't want to screw with the honest qualities of this pressing in the digitasl realm. I think one of the reason's this CD-R has captured some of the "analog" warmth is because it wasn't "corrected". I've noticed in the past when I've carefully (by hand) removed any slight clicks or any other processing that some of the analog magic kind of disappears. I've received some requests for copies of this CD-R and I'll send them out warts & all (not many to be honest). What's nice is that anyone else can rip the data from the disc and do their own restroation work, if that's what they want to do. 'Carry On', the title track and a few others are absolutely unbelievable in their quality (nothing of course to do with me/that's what was on the vinyl).

Todd

 

It all depends on the software you are using.

Some will change the sound when you do stuff like that. Others won't.

ProTools, which I use, won't change things. Example:

I first took an audio file with audible clicks and brought it into PT. I made a copy of that file and brought it into PT as well. I then removed the clicks (by hand) on one of the files. Inverted it, played the two back - all I heard were the clicks.

Just to make sure other funny stuff wasn't happening, I normalized the "silent" sections to make sure any changes simply weren't at a very low level. Same thing - totally silent.

End point? If you use the right software and know what you're doing, a workstation will NOT change the sound of your files...

 

This Experiment

Luke,

I am glad that for the purposes of our experiment on Deja Vu that Todd did a straight transfer "warts and all". That was actually the intent of the experiment.

I have read of the virtues of all the software on the market in many threads in this Forum. Perhaps, some day I will find out from a first hand experience. For now, I am using more conventional methods to make my recordings.

Bob

 

Scott, I strongly believe you have that backward. Atlantic, or anyone else in the industry did not use those rounded sleeves until the 80s. In the early 70s, up until around 1976 or 77 it was common for the record labels to do advertising on the inner sleeve.

Is it possible that the reissues of this album sounds better to your ears?Could it be that the tapes were kind of worn or even partially magnetized (erased) when Joe Gastwirt remastered the CDs?

 

I believe Scott was saying that he liked the later reissues, rather than the original.

Joe Gastwirt did the remastered CD. At that point in his career he used a lot of noise reduction.

 

This is true, especially if you process at higher than just 16-bit.

 

Re: This Experiment

You don't have to change the way you "make" them - this is just something to do after you've done so.

If you like the results you get with your stand-alone burner, this is how it would work:

1) record the album to CD-R as you've been doing it
2) copy the CD-R to your computer using a program like Exact Audio Copy
3) import that file into ProTools for declicking
4) export the file from ProTool
5) burn the "corrected" file to CD-R

Unless the PC version of PT is different (I use a Mac), this should get you results *exactly* like the original, just without the clicks.