Denon DP-47F upgrade questions with system description

Hello,

First time poster here and self-taught noob.

I recently retired to the Japanese countryside and decided to get back into audio. I took delivery of a Denon DP-47F with a DIATONE AMG-44 cartridge. The cartridge is a MM, as well as my Onkyo A-9010 44 WATT amplifier preamp. I am enjoying records with Sennheiser HD558 headphones and I am trying to decide if the next step is to purchase speakers or replace the TT cartridge. I know what speakers I want (Yamaha NS-F500) and I’m patiently waiting for a used pair to come onto the market. I tested the speakers with a comparable 44 WATT amplifier and I was very happy with the results. I can’t find specs on the cartridge, but I can get in touch with the seller with questions. He has access to many Denon DP-47F’s with that very cartridge and is selling them on Yahoo auctions in Japan.

I’ve been scanning various boards for discussions on the Denon DP-47F and have read the successful MM cartridge replacements seem to be the Audio Technica AT120eb, NAGAOKA MM (MP) Cartridge MP-110, and the Shure m97xe. They are all $200 or less, which suits my budget and tells me that I will a much better sound if I upgrade to one of these. There’s a big secondary sales market in Japan, and I can probably find something even better at the same price, but again, I’m just kind of blindly selecting simply based on others’ comments.

Its been recently suggested to me to consider the Denon DL-110 MC cartridge. It seems to be unique in that although it is an MC, it is compatible with MM phono inputs. The PHONO input on my Onkyo A-9010 is 3.0mV / 47 kOhm (sensitivity / impedance). From what I have been reading, worst case scenario is that one may have to turn the volume up in this sort of configuration? Prices for Denon DL-110 MC are between $200 and $275. I paid $300 for the turntable.

So, I’ll leave it there. Simply looking for advice and constructive comments given what I have laid out here. It’s incredibly exciting going through audio stuff in Japan. They take great care of their possessions here, so used vinyl and gear is a pleasure to buy. The language is a challenge, but I have help.

 

These cartridges you've listed are medium compliance and should work very well with the Denon DP-47F with its electronic Servo Tracer tonearm. I have a similar turntable like yours, mine being the JVC QL-Y5F, and it works like a dream. And it's also good that the seller has access to these turntables due to being very complicated to service with parts that are almost impossible to source.

I don't have the Denon DL-110 HOMC cartridge but would love to at least try it out. I'll let the others chime in on this.

 

Onkyo doesn't list the capacitance of the internal phono preamp. That's going to a problem because it's hard to make an informed recommendation without that spec. I'd email Onkyo and get that info before proceeding further.

 

I have confirmed via two other audio boards: there is a high input capacitance (1000pF) on the Onkyo A-9010 phono stage

A-9010 phono stage - huge input capacitance
Determining Phono imput capacitance using schematic- Vinyl Engine
Onkyo A-9010 - Manual - Stereo Integrated Amplifier - HiFi Engine Service Manual

 

If that figure is correct, it would be a huge design error and make it straight up incompatible with a number of cartridges. If that spec is true, I'd move to an outboard unit pronto, even something cheap like an ART DJ Pre.

 

Before I opt for an outboard unit, I am going to see if I can get an answer from Onkyo in Japan.

 

Per Onkyo Japan the internal phono preamp spec is 94 mV (1kHz 0.5 %)

 

"As for the capacity of the built-in phono equalizer, as shown in the URL above,
Only “94 mV (1kHz 0.5%)” is available."

 

If I understand things correctly, moving coil cartridges- even high output ones such as the Denon DL-110 you're interested in -, are largely unaffected by the capacitance level of the phono input (unless very, very high). So if the 1000pF figure you mention for your Onkyo is correct, and it does seem higher than one would expect, the DL-110 would still work okay. An average modern moving magnet cartridge would struggle to perform optimally with that high a level of capacitance (in addition to that added by the tonearm cable loom), as most seem to want to see between 200 and 300pF in total. Another possible option for cartridges that don't mind high capacitance at the phono input would be something from Grado, they are mostly moving iron types and high capacitance is not so much of a concern with them, though I can't speak for how they would match the tonearm of your lovely looking Denon turntable.

I wouldn't get hung up on the amount you paid for the turntable vs the amount you are considering paying for the Denon cartridge, the DP-47f would cost a lot more than $300 if you could buy one new now.

 

OK, I will start sourcing new DL-110's. I have come across used ones. Would you take that risk? Are there specific questions you would ask the sellers? There's a used Shure m97xe in a headshell with case, citing "The total usage time is from several hours to several tens of hours". I mean, you can't return used cartridges, can you?

 

I don't think that tells you anything about the input capacitance of the in-built phono preamp. IME big companies like this rarely respond with meaningful answers to technical questions.

 

Looking at the phono stage schematics in the service manual they really use 1000pF caps in Onkyo A-9010's phono stage. What were they thinking? That's way too high and will cause some treble roll of with any MM cartridge.

 

I am generally a fan and advocate of buying secondhand due to the amazing value sometimes available, your $300 purchase of the DP-47f as a great example. However, I am wary of buying used cartridges unless from a personally known and trusted seller, for generally there is no way for a buyer to ascertain actual usage and condition of the stylus and therefore how much chance there is that using it could damage your vinyl LPs.

 

Good point.

 

So, my options are purchasing a separate phono preamp, or going with a cartridge that may not have an issue. It seems the Denon DL-110 MC may not have an issue.

 

After getting a lot of input on this, I'm going to hunt down a new DL-110, and I'm sure I'll be happy with it. If I move on to other cartridges and I am not happy, I will purchase a 3rd party phono pre-amp, such as the Art DJ Pre II, which has been suggested, and I'll be as good as gold. Thank you for your help. I very much appreciate it.

 

Did you end up getting a DL-110? Happy with what you ended up using?

 

Hi Geordiepete,

I ended up purchasing an Audio Technica VM540ML (MM) and I was immediately impressed with the new details it presented and the seemingly higher soundstage. After 50 hours of break-in, I purchased an ART DJPre II, and I am right at the point where I want to compare the sound of my system with and without the added phono preamp, as I want to understand exactly what it is doing for me. I am also on the hunt for a second Denon PCL40 headshell, as I want to hear my older Mitsubishi cartridge with elliptical stylus. The AT cartridge, although much more detailed is getting caught up in repeats on certain records that the elliptical never discovered. Unfortunately in Japan, where I live, there is a rich market for used Denon DP47F TT's, so the headshell doesn't come up for auction that often.

 

I've seen DP-47F headshells crop up on Mercari Japan. Worth looking there.

Good to hear you're happy with a VM540ML. I'm in Japan too, and use a late model Denon DP47F (2002, I think) that I bought from Hard Off for ¥16,000. The diamond on the Denon DL-80MC fell off so the store refunded me ¥5,000. I ended up getting an AT-VMN95E and am happy with the front end of my system for now. When I replace the needle, I'll either replace it with a AT-VM95ML, keeping the current cartridge, or get a new cart, such as the DL-110 or perhaps the VM540ML. I've been inclining towards microline for more detail, but replacing the new elliptical I just bought is a long way off yet.

This year or early next, I'd like to upgrade my speakers. Currently have Victor JS-370 speakers. They're a floorstanding, 3-way pair from the late 1970s. Thing is, replacing them with modern floorstanders would be expensive. If I went for bookshelves, I imagine I might be disappointed in the reduced bass, although when I play music upstairs, my wife complains about the bass she hears when she's downstairs, so maybe I should look for some decent budget bookshelves (up to around $250/¥25,000).

 

I also have a pair of vintage Victor speakers; they are the SX-700 Spirit. They are 3-way and weigh a ton. I have them up on speaker stands and those made a world of difference. I picked them up at an audio store in Kurashiki. They let me audition them with music I brought with me and connected to a similar amp as mine.

We’re renting a 2-story home with double paned windows, so no sound leak problems with the neighbors.

I research at HardOff and then tend to buy on Yahoo Auction. Although if I purchase vintage components in the future, it will be through HiFiDo or HardOff, as they often refurbish and maintain.

The used record scene here is unbelievable when they are cheap. Sometimes I think the Japanese never played the record after they bought them. Pristine condition.

For speakers; check out Tannoy. I have two friends in Japan who use and love them for use in small rooms. I wanted Krypton at BIC Camera but too expensive.

 

Cheers. The sound from my upstairs room doesn't travel to the neighbours, so it's just the bass moving downstairs I want to reduce. Good to hear speaker stands make a difference.

Any recommendations for old and new models of Tannoy at around ¥10,000 to ¥25,000?

 

Tannoy E11 should bring you at or below your budget. Hopefully you can audition a pair before making a purchase decision. Returns are impossible in Japan, which is why the used market if glutted with almost new gear. Good luck!

 

Put it on my list, thanks!