Denon PCM Encoding in 1970s. Is it different than Sony CD PCM?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Mr Bass, Aug 7, 2016.

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  1. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle Thread Starter

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    Mid Atlantic
    There have been rumors of the submaster precut tape being used on a few early CDs but don't know if such actually happened. But the -3 required a sample rate converter unlike the analog tape used for the -2 didn't it?
     
  2. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle Thread Starter

    Location:
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    Sorry it was the F1 I meant. I wish they had a better labeling scheme. Above we noted that the PCM 1 and F1 were more for the videocam market. The Sony 1600 family is bad sounding but I can't say if the first 1600 was OK. Do you have a recording using only the 1600?
     
  3. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Wait, Madonna's first album was digitally mastered? I thought Madonna was all-analog, and it was Like A Virgin that was digital (and sounds it).

    My suspicion is that the problems with some of these early digital gadgets were their analog components, not so much the digital stuff. That's because I've read they can all be hardware hacked to sound a lot better than they did out of the box.
     
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  4. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle Thread Starter

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    Like A Virgin specifically used the Sony F1 but for mixing. According to Wiki the Sony recorder was the 3324. I agree that I see no indication of a digital recorder on her debut. It does use poor sounding digital synths. I'm sure a Madonna fan here would know exactly what they used. I tend to think no Sony gear sounded as well as the Denon or Soundstream recorders.
     
  5. Yeah, her first album used the F1, for the master, at least. The tracking was analog, I think. It's a great sounding LP.

    As far as "poor sounding digital synths," most of the synths used were analog Moog and Arp keyboards, maybe a Roland Juno too. The first digital synth (i.e., with FM synthesis) was, I believe, the Yamaha DX7 and I don't think it had even been released yet.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2016
  6. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    When I bought my WG of the nightfly I knew of that whole debacle with the -02/-03 masters and made sure to get the -03. Luckily the -02 are somewhat rare so I think anyone buying one online would have to be pretty unlucky to recieve one.


    I know for a fact that Madonna's first was at least tracked analog. I've seen/heard the 2" reels for Borderline and Lucky Star. Not sure about mixing but I was always under the impression it was all analog. If it really was mixed using the F1, are there any digital releases that are a digital clone of (or close to a clone of) the original master?

    Like a Virgin was one of the first to state full digital recording. Curious because that one is on HDtracks at a higher resolution, does anyone know what it's true original resolution was and if the original CD or the HD download are samplerate converted in any way?
     
  7. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle Thread Starter

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    I noted above that a Sony 3324 recorder was used with the F1 only for mixing, The 3324 was 44/48 at 16 bits. Are you surprised that upsampled Redbook files are offered on HDtracks?
     
  8. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Not really too surprised… I've bought lossy sourced music transcoded to FLAC on Pono, nothing surprises me anymore.

    I'd love to see the spectral of that hdtracks version, I imagine there'd be a very sharp cutoff. I have the blue label JP CD for that one, the original without Into The Groove. I always figured that release was a digital clone of the master. Sounds a little sterile but it has good dynamics. If that's true then the Hdtracks should be no different. (Unless the album was recorded as 16/48!)
     
  9. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Did some further investigation, obtained one track at 24/192 from Madonna, Like A Virgin, and True Blue - 3 albums for which the recording provenance has been a bit of a mystery anytime I've read up on it (well, maybe the other two more so than Virgin)


    The self titled debut and True Blue both look like they have very natural extension as well as tape noise above 22khz. I would say that these were not digtally recorded or mixed.


    Like A Virgin, on the other hand, the one that's never been disputed to be anything other than digital - it very much looks like a 44khz recording with a very sharp cutoff. There is audio data above 22khz but it appears to be mostly the very light noise floor of clean analog electronics, and some harmonics. My best guess is that this was a 44khz recording "remastered" at 192khz - as in, when doing their EQ and other mastering moves they did so in the analog domain and captured at a higher resolution. Which is really the best way to do that sort of thing. Not a clone of the master though and I suspect the old blue target cd is, so I'll be sticking with that one.


    Wouldn't mind the complete download for the other 2 albums though!
     
  10. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    The DX7 didn't come out 'till '83 - I think Madonna was already in the can by the time the DX7 hit the market.

    Almost certainly that's what was done, although they might not have done it in the analog domain. They might have converted back to analog using the original deck (to resolve any linearity issues, assuming they could find the original, or a properly configured deck) and then re digitized at 24/192 and done their remastering from there back in the digital domain.
     
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  11. EddieVanHalen

    EddieVanHalen Forum Resident

    Look for an original LP pressing of the soundtrack for Star Trek II The Wrath Of Khan as this was recorded and mixed on the 3M digital system.
     
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  12. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle Thread Starter

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    I found an interesting quote about 2 paragraphs from the top from a producer Lucas Kendall who later worked with 3M digital tapes from Disney:

    Review of Wrath of Khan Extended Soundtrack + Producer Interview »

    Apparently Disney used the 3M system in the 80s. The problem is that by 1982 Redbook was published and Sony gear would likely have been involved at some point along with analog to digital editing bouncing. It's unfortunate that apart from the prototype recordings on the Sound 80 label there don't seem to be any purist recordings with the 3M. This makes it tough to analyze its sonics.
     
  13. MrRom92

    MrRom92 Forum Supermodel

    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    This doesn't surprise me too much, Disney and 3M have a very long working history. Disney and 3M teamed up to release one of the earliest pre-recorded magnetic tape titles, The Living Desert, back in 1954! Available in 3 3/4, 7 1/2, and 15ips versions.
     
  14. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    Now that I didn't know. The Wrath of Khan soundtrack was a favorite when I was in high school. It's a fairly small orchestra by movie standards, but Horner managed to make it sound larger than it actually was.
     
  15. FYI, circa-1970 13-bit/32kHz PCM via YouTube:

     
  16. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle Thread Starter

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    Discogs says 1972 which sounds more plausible. The only pcm recording from 1970 I am aware of is Pires doing Mozart Piano Sonatas on Denon 7053.

    Incidentally a few early PCM recordings were issued on Nippon Columbia along with some on Denon but by 1974 they all seem on Denon.
     
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  17. skriefal

    skriefal Senior Member

    Location:
    SLC, Utah
    It was released on vinyl in 1971 (early '71 iirc).
     
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  18. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle Thread Starter

    Location:
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    Thanks. I am compiling a pre Redbook pcm discography and want to be accurate. Do you have a reference or the LP itself which verifies that?

    Edit: Nevermind. I found a citation at billboard which mentions it. Thanks. it cites the NHK PCM recorder rather than the 023R.

    Part of the confusion is that Nippon Columbia used a NCC prefix while Denon used a NCB prefix, but the numbers may be the same. Inscrutable.
     
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2016
  19. skriefal

    skriefal Senior Member

    Location:
    SLC, Utah
    Billy Budapest's first post in this thread includes a quote from Thomas Fine stating that it was released in January 1971. And my CD copy of this album has a 1971 copyright.
     
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  20. kevinsinnott

    kevinsinnott Forum Coffeeologist

    Location:
    Chicago, IL USA
    I suspect Von Karajan was bowled over by the lack of his. Plus no doubt his "demo" was of his orchestra done as a pitch meeting, perhaps with Sony's Morita personally guiding his holiness's perceptions. Von Karajan certainly had ears. He gets a bad rap but he could create a unique sound. Also, DG could too. I agree to my ears I am turned off by their over-control of variables, but they were just bringing their philosophy to full fruition. I admire their pursuit of a sound and a philosophical purity. Interesting, many of my favorite DG recordings are of their second-tier conductors who might have gotten less sound control. When Von Karajan sat in the control room and, hearing a rehearsal run through, asked for more oboe, no doubt someone was dispatched to add a spot mic. Their best records are from Bohm and Jochum and others. I know an engineer who participated in a few DG CSO recording sessions and told me they used some PZMs, which surprised me. He said they certainly cared, and they were recording in Symphony Hall, which became notoriously dry, not their choice!
     
  21. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle Thread Starter

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    Von Karajan is one of my favorite conductors so it is only the recordings I criticize. Having known conductors and musicians, I can safely say their audio systems were/are miserable. They listen past the sonics because they are paying attention to performance aspects of the music. They certainly can hear better sonics but that is not what is most important. Even in recording studios, the sound can be quite variable. Early digital whatever its faults provided more clarity. It did that in a rather poor way but for people listening all they noticed was what they newly heard, not what they weren't hearing. In addition, recording engineers love digital because of the ease of editing.

    The frustrating thing is that listening to these pre Redbook digital LPs I realize that digital was capable of better sonics than what we got with Redbook.
     
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  22. kevinsinnott

    kevinsinnott Forum Coffeeologist

    Location:
    Chicago, IL USA
    True, Mr Bass. However, as my playback's gotten better I've learned to appreciate some of even the earliest Redbooks, as others on this thread have noted. Of course, it took some tweaking. DG seems to have lost their luster in the digital age, but partly, I think their engineering excesses were more excusable on LP. The reasons for that are not fully known by me and I'm sure other have their own theories. One thing for sure. I recall when DG and Philips had by far the quietest LP surfaces. Those rice paper inserts added value as well.
     
  23. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle Thread Starter

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    The saving grace of the early Redbooks was the flat transfers. They should have been relegated to the trashcan by now but the later editions despite somewhat better encoders/editors and higher rates are being trashed in the mastering. Very sad.
     
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  24. Discogs is wrong. It was recorded in December, 1970.

    Also, that Pires performance and recording was from 1974 (not 1970).
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2016
  25. Right. Released January, 1971, recorded December, 1970. Not much time between the recording and release, that's for sure!
     
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