Denon PCM Encoding in 1970s. Is it different than Sony CD PCM?

Yes I verified the first one in post 193 after finding info elsewhere. Sorry for the confusion.

As for Pires thanks as it does look like a mistake. However I think Pires sonatas were issued in 1976 as part of a complete set OX 7051-58.

I found one other potential 1970 recording from Steve Marcus on Nippon Columbia NCB-7003 issued in 1971 apparently. Is this correct? But it was done with the NHK PCM 32k recorder as the 023R had yet to be built.

Thanks again for your help in getting this discography right.

 

I don't think there would have been a way at that time to do a sample rate conversion from 50kHz to 44.1kHz and stay in the digital domain.
I suspect they came out of the 16/50 digital master with analog, and then recorded the analog signal at 16/44.1 for the cd master.

Even in the early 90's when I started working in audio, we couldn't go digital from 44.1 to 48 or vice versa. We had to use analog in/out.

 

Although I don't know what device would have been capable of doing it, I think there is something that could… there used to be some note made of this in the inserts of the early 80's telarc CDs where they gave the technical details of the recording. I'll see if I can find one so I can recall how it was worded exactly. The two 1984 pressings I had of the Telarc 1812 would support this - it was quickly reissued due to mastering error. Upon comparison they were nearly digitally identical and stayed in sync, although they were at different levels - the earlier one clipped on all the peaks. Perhaps something that went wrong in this primitive conversion process.

 

According to the NAB Engineering Handbook, consoles with integrated sample rate converters were being made in the mid 80s. Of course whether anyone used them or bounced to analog was an idiosyncratic decision based on facility and engineering preference. The first sample rate converters must have been developed by 1980 or so as they were appearing in consoles by the mid 80s. Without a direct staement it is going to be hard to verify whether they were used on any given recording for CDs.

 

The Soundstream system came up with an interface for the 3M deck sometime in the early '80s, didn't they? I'm assuming that was digital, and as it allowed for editing maybe it also handled sample rate conversion?

No idea how good those early converters were, but in a way sample rate conversion is easier than A/D or D/A conversion, so...

 

Yes, ease would be a factor but given the relatively poor quality of the conversion it is entirely possible that engineers bounced to analog and then to digital. Without documentation it is tough to know what happened. This is why I am restricting comparisons as well as the discography to pre Redbook LPs before 1982. From 1982 onward it becomes very difficult to know what they did in mixing and editing. The digital editors were poor and not widely available in the early 80s which is another reason why they might bounce to analog and not do sample rate conversion.

 

OK I received two Telarc LPs yesterday and played them along with one I aleady had. The three Telarcs are 10044 Mel Lewis Naturally, 10047 Tchaikovsky Symphony 4 Maazel Cleveland Orch and 15502 Liza Minnelli At Carnegie Hall. The Mel Lewis and Tchaikovsky were digitally mastered in 1979 with the Soundstream system. The Liza Minelli was recorded in 1987 with the Sony PCM 1630 and Collossus. However he recording team and mic'ing were very similar and all performed by the Telarc team. So the only real difference are the digital converters used.

To not keep you in suspense the Telarcs recorded in 1979 with Soundstream blow away the Telarc recorded in 1987 with Sony Redbook recorders. The Liza Minnelli recording is well done with Liza in fron o f the orchestra and her voice a close but still believable front row perspective. However the band is completely flat staged behind her with synthesized textures that make different instruments sound alike. It doesn't sound remotely believable and the lack of depth makes it oppressive.

On the other hand, the two Telarcs recorded in 1979 with Soundstream have much more body to the instruments and also more obvious differences in terms of tone color and transient response. The pizzicato strings in the Tchaikovsky have a certain body and resonance and are neither vague nor brittle sounding. The brass on both these 1979 recordings have punch and real brassiness if not quite up to the standards of the best analogue. Nevertheless it is a believable orchestra and big band respectively.

How sad the terrible decline in sonics from the same label with the same engineers and same mics from 1979 pre Redbook to 1987 Redbook.


Mel Lewis Naturally Telarc 10044


Tchaikovsky Sym. 4 Maazel Telarc 10047



Liza Minelli At Carnegie Hall Telarc 15502

 

I posted the Pre Redbook Digital LP Discography in the Music Corner Forum. If you have additions or corrections please post over there. Thanks.

PRE Redbook Digital LP Discography 1972-1981 »

 

I got a copy of this LP which was recorded with a proto DSD delta sigma recorder at 644k; sort of 1/4 SACD. It is not bad but neither is it noteworthy. It has a bit more definition than 80s era Redbook LPs but the midrange is lacking compared to Denons and Telarcs. There is also a slight touch of digititus when the music gets louder. The drums at the back of the stage are muffled sounding. The brass do have some presence and character but not enough to compete with the earlier pre Redbook digital LPs.

 

I've been having a look today to some of my LP records and Rainbow's Straight Between The Eyes from 1982 was tracked to analog and mixed down to digital using JVC equipment. I didn't recall JVC making professional digital recorders. I don't know if JVC digital equipment used on that album was a propietary system or a variaton of other brands systems.

 

JVC was in the videocam business which was very much in the middle of early PCM development.. I think they developed some PCM adapters for their products in that era. I don't believe they had full fledged digital recorders in the pre Redbook era however.

 

This thread seems to imply that early digital recorders had non-flat frequency response. How did OP arrive to that conclusion?..

 

I just found this regarding the JVC digital system from the late 70's and the 80's: http://www.preservationsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/JVC_900_Digital_Audio_System.pdf

 

I just bought the CD of the 1976 recording of the Santa Fe Opera performance of Thompson, The Mother of Us All. It is supposed to be a very funny opera about Susan B. Anthony. More to the point, it was the first Soundstream recording using their prototype 16/37.5 PCM recorder. I'm anxious to listen to it. SPARS code states DDD, so it's definitely sourced from the Soundstream--the original LP was not as the Soundstream was employed as a backup at the time.

 

Can you quote me saying that let alone concluding that? My memory is not what it used to be.

 

It seems to be from the mid 80s based on the text in the link talking about the CD. You may be right but I could not find any evidence of a JVC digital recorder equivalent to the Denon and Soundstream prior to the Redbook era. As I noted they did seem to have videocam related PCM products and perhaps some digital editors at the beginning of the 80s.

I would note that I have a number of jazz albums from JVC Japan issued in the late 70s and very early 80s and none talk about digital editing or mastering.

 

This system is from at least the late 80's given the reference to CD-ROM. The CD-ROM "yellow book" standard was published by ISO on 8/31/89:

ISO/IEC 10149:1989 - Information technology -- Data interchange on read-only 120 mm optical data disks (CD-ROM) »

 

Hmm...

 

I think you have it backwards. I am saying that the pre Redbook recorders or at least the LPs produced from them have a more balanced sound because of better harmonic and transient accuracy than the Redbook recorders. This is not a question of whether they can record 20-20k Hz but of low level detail and perhaps certain types of distortion even if low decibel. It would be no different than similar differences in power amps. Read my review of the three Telarc LPs up above.

 

I believe you are talking about vinyl transfers of early digital recordings & concluding that differences in sound of various LPs are somehow related (but not limited) to certain digital recorder's harmonic inaccuracy (which, in my view, is a deficiency in its frequency response)...

 

Well, I got the CD in the mail and contrary to the listing, it's the earlier AAD pressing, before New World Records switched to using the Soundstream tape. So, it's back to Amazon for an exchange!

 

We are getting into semantics here when it has been repeatedly acknowledged that since we can't hear the digital tapes before they were cut to disk it can't be nailed down precisely where these differences lie. Recording from 20-20kHz guarantees that each cycle can be encoded but doesn't guarantee that every aspect of the harmony including overtones/partials and transient onsets and decays are going to be captured in identical fashion.

Logically a recorder might have some problem that impacts several different aspects of the sound encoding, only one of which is the harmonic overtones. perhaps the same deficiency also affects accurate capturing of reflected ambient sound. You are saying that a particular issue mandates a specific error in a one to one relation. That is not the way many engineering problems nor software problems manifest themselves.

 

The SPARS code listings on Amazon are notoriously inaccurate.

 

Agreed. However, a DDD version created from the Soundstream masters was released. I've contacted New World Records directly to obtain a copy.

 

I recently obtained a copy of the first recording with the 3M Digital Recorder in 1978 on the Sound 80 label (S80 DLR-101). This was a Direct to Disk recording with audiophile microphones to the 3M digital Recorder and MCI JH-528B Mixing console. The program was the St Paul Chamber Orch playing Copland's Appalachian Spring and Charles Ives' Three Places in New England.

As for the sonics, I would have to say they sound not very different from 80s era Sony Redbook and much inferior to the Telarc Soundstream and the Denon PCM recorders. Despite Direct to Disk recording, the instruments sound thin with little in the way of transient bite and clarity. The treble register is probably the least bad and does not possess the restricted opaque quality of Sony Redbook LPs nor is at all harsh. The midrange is thin and recessed and the bass is extremely thin. Instruments sound more synthesized than natural.

The soundstage on the Copland is very peculiar and flat on the speakers. It does not sound remotely like a chamber orchestra arranged normally in the studio (see photo). The Ives does have a bit of soundstage depth but it is rather cloudy and there is no ambiance detectable. Given the way the orchestra is recorded shown in the picture, it is baffling how they ended up with this result.

In short the 3M Digital Recorder seems no better than early Sony Redbook in most respects and has none of the positive qualities of the PCM competitors at Denon and Soundstream. I might note in passing that Michael Fremer has a very negative view of the Ry Cooder LP (WB BSH 3358) recorded in 1979 with the 3M system - Bop Til You Drop.