Describe "Tube Sound"

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by ralf11, Feb 3, 2018.

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  1. Claus

    Claus Senior Member

    Location:
    Germany
    I don't like the sound of vintage tube amps. Colored sound.

    I have a tube preamp, but it doesn't sound like tubes. Musical and neutral.
     
  2. Otlset

    Otlset I think I am I think

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    My ears and auditory system tell me my tube amp makes recorded music and voices sound more "real" (as if the voices or instruments are in the room with me), and the SS amps I've listened to sound less "real" by comparison.

    But wait, my auditory system must be playing tricks on me, as what I perceive as more "real" is actually less accurate, and a SS amp although not sounding as "real", is actually more accurate.

    It seems to me that a reproduced sound that sounds more realistic is more accurate, and less realistic is less accurate.

    Oh well, in any case I'll stick to what my ears and auditory system report as more "real", even if they don't know better, because it's much more enjoyable -- and that's why I play my system. :p
     
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  3. sberger

    sberger Dream Baby Dream

    Agree. 7868's maybe.
     
  4. saturdayboy

    saturdayboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chicago
    Exactly
     
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  5. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
    Most vintage amps are not clear sounding. I replace all existing coupling capacitors with Russian K40Y-9 and it clears up the audio significantly to high quality sound.
     
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  6. Higlander

    Higlander Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Florida, Central
    But you are not listening to your Amp in a vacuum.
    Your amp is simply a part in the chain, and inaccuracy, could develop with your speakers, the recordings themselves, your room, your actual hearing and so on.
    The only accurate way to judge if one part of a chain is accurate is to isolate it's particular performance and quantify what it is doing to the signal.

    What you are saying, is that in your particular room, with your particular speakers, and with your particular hearing pecularities, you prefer the tube coloration.
    It may not work that way in another room or system, hence why it is called less accurate.

    One can not claim accuracy or enjoyment, and claim one component completely takes the credit for that sound.
    It is a room, speakers, hearing, amp etc. (Not doubting you enjoy the sound, or it seems more realistic to you, within the confines of your listening room)
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  7. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    So... Hmmm. Does any amp work/sound the same way in another room? And if not, then what is this term "accurate" even supposed to mean?

    Coming from a position of "what's the point of these gadgets anyway", the whole thing is totally subjective ipso facto because everyone's hearing is different. But you can come to a basic consensus of what sounds good, because among most humans, there are more similarities than differences in hearing. But the fact that there are ANY differences, totally negates the idea of "accurate" except from a purely analytical standpoint.

    So then the question becomes, are we listening to sound pressure waves impacting eardrums or are we listening to readings on the oscilloscope? I've owned gear that had wonderful analytical numbers and sounded almost unlistenable. And the opposite is true... Lousy numbers but a joy to experience.

    So tell me, what is this "accuracy" thing?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  8. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    I'm still trying to come to terms with folks saying "real" lol ... it's a guitar and an amp, it may have a specific sound, but whichever, whatever the sounds are all real hahaha
     
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  9. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    I wonder if the early speaker slashers got caught up in this dribble lol
     
  10. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    I know right? Even if the guitar is out of tune and the amp is about to blow, it's still real. But I guess, they mean it sounds the way it "should"... Best case scenario and whatnot.
     
  11. rischa

    rischa Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    You limit your listening to amplified guitar music only? Try a string quartet sometime.
     
  12. Higlander

    Higlander Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Florida, Central
    What goes in, equals what comes out. Simple.
    An amp should Amplify.
     
  13. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    Not to put too fine a point on this, but please note how this statement, is COMPLETELY contradictory:

    Compare:
    "What goes in equals what comes out..."

    To:
    "An amp should Amplify"

    Alright, who here knows what an amplifier does?
    Hint: What goes into an amplifier does not equal what comes out.

    I'm just kinda messing with you, but you pretty much illustrated (without much effort) how circular these subjective arguments truly are.

    i.e. if I have an amp that amplifies, then it's accurate? whut??? Did you just said that, really?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  14. Higlander

    Higlander Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Florida, Central
    But in all seriousness, not a single person is even remotely saying anything like what you are saying.
    Are you offended that something is called things less accurate, even if they are enjoyable sounding?

    You are creating an argument based on something no one has ever said.
     
  15. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    People are surprised when invited into a live recording studio or into a concert sound check just how strident,dynamic and in-your-face real instruments and real live miked vocals sound ..So in my opinion tubes sounds less like real music.Do they smooth the edges off what a live recording sounds like and maybe add a bit of artificial ambiance in order to make it a bit more pleasing and improve the listenability of the recording? That is a different argument.
     
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  16. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    This is for the most part very true especially for amplified music. I don't care how much you spend on a two channel system, it's not gonna make it sound like Tower of Power is in your living room.

    I think hi fi gear can mimic a string quartet pretty well though.
     
  17. Spin Doctor

    Spin Doctor Forum Resident

    Tube gear isn't designed specifically to add artificial ambiance or generate some nostalgic harkening back to an earlier time. Old tube gear did tend to be kinda colored and some folks equate that 70+ year old technology to everything with a tube in it.

    Tube gear built today is generally pretty neutral but does have a different "vibe" than SS gear, but I can't tell you what that is. The differences happen on the quantum level, ok?

    As an aside, I went from all SS gear to my current all tube system. My tube stuff is pretty much 3 dimensional whereas the SS stuff was nice, but didn't place things in various points in the room as well. It's worth noting that my current gear isn't expensive by any means. It just sounds really good... It has a better presentation.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  18. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    They way I see it accuracy means detail, excessive detail means bright and too bright is fatiguing. Or it just means the high end is boosted, the ol's treble knob is just out of balance. Predominantly, the sweetness in tubes is in the mid range the lack of a shrill high end gets people that are into that kind of think to call tubes colored or distorted.

    Also....I'm looking for my source to deliver the details, that it's job. Get that part right and even those awful vintage tube amps work just fine.
     
  19. MichaelXX2

    MichaelXX2 Dictator perpetuo

    Location:
    United States
    I once recorded an album in my garage, and I'm aware of how strident and bright guitars and drums can sound in real life. However, I've also been to a number of symphony performances, string ensembles, choir concerts, and listened to my own instruments next to my own face, and acoustic instruments, the sound emanating from an acoustic guitar, or a human voice, or a cello, is not bright in any way, especially if you're in a huge, warm, treated, fluffy-sounding concert hall. Maybe most microphones add some kind of etched quality, and maybe tubes take it away. I don't really beat my head against a wall over this.

    The point of a hobby is that it's supposed to be fun! Tubes are fun. Staring and obsessing over measurement sheets is fun. Buying accurate speakers or warm old ones is fun. The original artist, with few exceptions, doesn't give a crap about the "authentic master tape experience," so I don't fret too much about it either. I'll tell you what's not fun, and that's listening to a Beethoven symphony on bright, hyper-accurate, bass-free Magnepans, driven by a solid state amp. Maybe some disagree. That's why I don't have Magnepans in my house. :shh:
     
  20. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    I think the reference point of playing an acoustic instrument is a valuable one. I've spent many hours with a martin guitar on my knee, I know what that sounds like. If I put on a Tony Rice LP, I have a pretty good idea of what should sound like through my system. By that wildy unscientific measure, tubes sound pretty accurate to me.
     
  21. apesfan

    apesfan "Going Ape"

    I will not sound like a know it all in these posts.. That's why I tend to express myself in 9th grade grammar and tone. I start sounding very pretentious when posting about topics like this.
    To my ears I prefer a tube preamp and SS power amp. Tube power amps are like turntables to me. I get a little on edge waiting for something bad to happen.
    Take care, John M.
     
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  22. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    Simple acoustic non-amplified music is the easiest to record and the easiest to make sound nice through electronic equipment.
    My respect will always go to recordings and equipment that can reproduce the most complicated wide frequency ranges with ease.Tight fast bass lines,thunderous drums,electric guitars cutting through with superb transients and all without any congestion or strain.I haven't found a tube amp (for anything resembling remotely affordable money) that can do this.
    If i were mainly into acoustic and light classical the i can see the appeal of tubes.

    Ps..Still feels strange to call them Tubes.They will always be 'Valve' Amps in the UK.
     
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  23. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    And something bad will happen, it's a given. That's living on the edge.
     
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  24. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    That's a good point, the music you like and how you like to listen to it is a big factor. It's tough to rattle the fillings in your teeth with a "valve" amp. Just like it's tough to rattle the fillings in your teeth with a Martin guitar.

    Also..if felt weird for me to say "Valve".
     
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  25. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    I think we are getting off track in trying to decide which is better. The question is, how does tube equipment sound different? Not which is right.
    You are trying to justify that your preference are right by making a comparison to a sound check.

    An empty auditorium will sound different than one full of people. Hence an empty auditorium is tuned to sound bright so that when it is filled with people it will tame down and sound different during the actual concert.
     
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