Describe "Tube Sound"

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by ralf11, Feb 3, 2018.

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  1. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    My motto since finding myself seated in the fall out zone of a fireworks show years ago, life is always more interesting when there is a level a danger involved.

    Maybe that's why we like tubes. :D
     
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  2. Khorn

    Khorn Dynagrunt Obversarian

    We all buy components (systems) that appeal to our own sonic preferences. If there were perfect components that passed 100% accurate signals from source input to speaker output then woe to all the manufacturers out there because all we would require would be a “VOLKSYSTEM” with varying power options for different size spaces.

    Now wouldn’t that be fun !!! (not).
     
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  3. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    I'm not trying to live forever, I'm Just trying to be awesome. And accurate, I really want to be accurate.
     
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  4. Otlset

    Otlset I think I am I think

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    Then you'll need a sand (SS) amp. They don't color the sound, they just amplify.
     
  5. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Nah, that's just lifted highs and bloated bass.
     
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  6. HenryH

    HenryH Miserable Git

    A while ago (8-9 yrs) I was looking into some amplification for my Totem 1s. I auditioned a small pair of VTL amps with my own speakers. I have not since then personally heard anything in my system that managed to flesh out the sound as realistically as those amps did. The impression of presence was uncanny. I think that's a specialty of good tube amplification.
     
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  7. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    I have a VTL phonostage that I'm very happy with. They seem to make great stuff and not well represented on this forum.
     
  8. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    Are you the fellow in MI that rebuilds Harman Kardon tube equipment?
     
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  9. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
    THat person in Saginaw is likely Michael Simara. I am the Fisher specialist in MI, Jim Benedict
     
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  10. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    OK thanks. I bought an A500 restored by him. Love it. Own two Fishers too that I'll never part with.
     
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  11. sberger

    sberger Dream Baby Dream

    Michael Samra. Regular at Audio Asylum, great guy and a master restorer.
     
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  12. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
    I know Michael well. He is much larger than I when it comes to rebuilds. I am the only person he will contract work out to because we found out we perform rebuilds with identical parts & rebuild same areas in the amps. Uncanny huh? And, I will not deviate one bit on my rebuilds.
     
  13. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    The Russian caps was what got me wondering if you were him :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
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  14. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
    Michael & I are fans of Russian K40Y-9. It is the most musical capacitor I ever used in audio coupling circuits.
     
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  15. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    I believe it. He used the them in the A500.
     
  16. allied333

    allied333 Audiophile

    Location:
    nowhere
    I believe the Sansui used 6BM8 output tubes for 10 watts per channel. Most 6BM8 users believe the Mitsushita 6BM8 is best sounding. They are advertised on ebay as AWA 6BM8. Have you tried different 6BM8s in your receiver?
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2018
  17. SandAndGlass

    SandAndGlass Twilight Forum Resident

    When speaking of tube sound and comparing it with sand amps, tube sound is not always the best match for most tower speakers, which are mostly built for HT or dual purpose use of HT and stereo. These modern day speakers are usually voiced for use with sand amps, because that is the type of amp that most of the HT weighted users own.

    When used with tube amps, which are often less powerful, you sometimes loose the "slam" factor and some of that deep & tight sounding bass. In addition, the highs might not be a crisp and distinct.

    For these reasons, I don't bother running my front (and rear) towers through tube amplifier's. With the tower speakers that I use, Polk LSiM707's & Zu Omen Definitions MK I (switchable with an A/B speaker switch box), I don't see any reason to use tubes, as they sound perfect without them, no harshness at all. The power amp is an Emotiva XPA-2, original model.

    Hereby noting, that certain "audiophile" type speakers may play well with tubes.

    Where tube amplification really comes into play, is with high efficiency, horn loaded designs, like these Altec Lansing A7's.

    [​IMG]

    The A7's are rated at 103-dB and are very easy to drive. I had my first pair custom built back when I was sixteen and operated them with a small SS amp the could do 8-WPC at less than 1% distortion. At the time, needless to say, I was very impressed with their sound.

    The next time, I was so moved by sound quality, is back several years ago, when I managed to score a used pair of Rogue M-120 monoblocks.

    With brand new tubes and no break-in time, I was absolutely floored at the sound of tubes with these speakers.

    When I was just entering the audio secne, in my teens, tubes were going away, in favor of SS electronics. Even the venerable McIntosh, discontinued manufacturing tube amplifiers for many years.

    All the harshness, that I had always assumed was part of the recording process, like harsh saxophones, when playing on their high end registers that would make me cringe. All that was gone, in an instant.

    And the bass was to die for, mellow and round sounding. It was like every time that the Jazz bass player plucked a note on his upright bass, it just seemed to float toward me, like a giant marsh mellow balloon wrapping around me and enveloping me with that sweet rich bass.

    A little over a year later, I returned the M-120's back to Rogue and had them upgraded to the newer M-150's. I choose the M-150's over the M-180's, because I like the sound of KT88's in amplifier's of modern day design.

    The M-150's put out 150-WPC in the ultralinear mode and 75-WPC in the triode mode. The ultralinear mode works better with more dynamic music, like orchestra's and rock concert's. While the triode mode is more suited to jazz, vocals and acoustic instruments, where it brings out the richness.

    Rogue tube amps are an excellent, cost effective approach to those wanting to retain the slam of SS but without the sometimes associated harshness.

    Now that the Rogue Cronos Magnum integrated amplifier is in its second revision, the original version can be purchased on the used market for a very reasonable price. One just sold on eBay recently for about $1,050. The Cronos both the original and the newer version come with KT-120 output tubes, which are more linear sounding than the KT88's and have better more firmer bass.

    The Cronos Magnum does operate in ultralinear mode only. Those who are looking to move toward tubes, from SS, would be happy with any of the Rogue amplifiers, because they have all the guts of a SS amp. Which may also be some benefit to those who own modern tower speakers. Rogue amps also feature SS rectification, which gives a tighter sounding bass signature.

    I have a wonderful sounding vintage Scott 222C that is based on the small EL84 type power tubes, it puts out around 20-22 WPC, but unfortunately, due to hum issues, I have pulled this from the system.

    These vintage tube amps that are based on the smaller EL84 type amps, are ever so rich sounding, they make music sound so natural and effortless.

    A year or two ago, I had the 222C sitting in the guest amp spot, on a small table, in front of the TV (the M-150's sit on a reinforced table behind the TV) and a mother, whose seven year old daughter I take care of, was over with her daughter.

    I had just happened to find a pair of vintage Wharfedale W70 speakers at a local estate sale, on eBay (bought for $222 for the pair) and was playing around with them, with the 222C. I was playing different channels from Pandora One, when I decided to try a new age beats music channel. I sometimes pick channels like this, not so much as they are what I might regularly listen to, but because they have interesting and unusual sounds (to me at least). They also have plenty of deep bass and sub-bass.

    The W70's can be seen in the first photo, holding up the coffee service.

    Wharfedale also marked a small W60 and a larger W90 speaker. These are really nice sounding vintage speakers and are inexpensive, usually offered for local pick up only, because they will cost more than they would sell for to ship them and nobody has the original shipping cartons.

    These play well with both new and older music and play well with both tube and SS amps.

    Keep an eye out for a pair in your area on eBay, if you are putting together a nice vintage system. They are an excellent alternative to horn loaded speakers. All three models have a 12" woofer, a 4" midrange and a 1" paper cone tweeter, that is detailed without being harsh.

    I was stunned by how loud and clear the 222C could render this modern music. Prior to this, I considered the W70's to be a perfect match with tube amps playing vintage music. The 222C was produced between 1964 and 1966.

    [​IMG]

    The four EL84 family of power tubes can be seen in the rear, the larger tube next to them, provides tube rectification.

    A really nice feature about el84 based amps, is that they are inexpensive and last many times as long, when comparing them to larger power tubes, like the KT88's.

    The music was dynamic and the bass was tight and strong. Who would have figured? While I expected this kind of performance with the highly efficient A7's, I didn't expect to achieve the loud, room filling volume levels, that I got with the W70's.

    My smallest tube amp is a Decware Mini Tori, which is literally about the dimensions of a sheet of notebook paper (when speaking of two dimensions, without the case).

    It is only rated at 3.9-WPC and maybe less, depending which tube rectifier is used in the circuit. It sound ever so pleasant with the A7's and can still play at a solid, room filling level but, it won't recreate concert sound levels.

    Currently, I am running with a PrimaLuna, Prologue Five, which has KT88's, running at 36-WPC. This amp has a perfect sound in my room, with the A7's. With 36-watts of tube power, it is more than I will ever need. The Five is completely quiet, is self biasing, and a long tube life is expected. With only four power tubes total, it costs half or less as much to run than the two quads of KT88's in the M-150's.

    The SQ is more of a combination of a powerful modern amp and a nice sounding vintage amp with EL84 tubes.

    The nice thing about efficient speakers is that you can use them with a wide range of amplifier power.

    Since upgrading to the M-150's and other tube amps, I have acquired a 6SN7 tube preamplifier, fro a division of Cary Audo and a tube phono pre, from Decware.

    Today, I refuse to operate the A7's without any thing but a tube power amp, at the very least.

    I am one of those, who is of the opinion, that I would rather use a SS preamp and a tube power amp, than the other way around.

    I think that tubes power efficient speakers, quite nicely.

    That's my take on tube sound.

    It's more real, it sounds better, but you will only realize the most benefits with the right set of speakers. Don't expect to use tubes with any pair of speakers and expect wonderful things to happen. They may or may not happen.

    BTW... Upscale Audio is clearing out both the Prima Luna Prologue Five and the Four, which have now been replaced with their new Prologue Premium (more expensive), at $1,099 with the EL34 based Four priced at $200 less. This is a great opportunity to explore the sound of modern, quality tube amplification.

    S&G
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  18. mark winstanley

    mark winstanley Certified dinosaur, who likes physical product

    I listen to and play many instruments electric and acoustic. I have no idea on what you based your statement. I have in my listening collection classical, jazz, bluegrass, folk, country, rock, pop, metal, rap .... and anything else you could mention.
    I can only assume you did not understand my statement, or in trying to be a smart ar$e, you left the smart bit out.
     
  19. rischa

    rischa Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mt. Horeb, WI
    Sorry--must have misunderstood your post.
     
  20. Socalguy

    Socalguy Forum Resident

    Location:
    CA
    SS amplification generally produces a sharper attack and a faster decay than tubes. It takes some fine listening and ear training to hear, and the difference isn't easy to put into words. It's a bit like trying to describe a color. That said, to me, the tube sound is more "cushioned" than SS ... if that makes any sense.
     
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  21. seed_drill

    seed_drill Senior Member

    Location:
    Tryon, NC, USA
    It's richer. Like free range eggs vs. factory farmed. ;)
     
  22. noladaoh

    noladaoh Retired

    Location:
    Arkansas
    Relaxed.
     
  23. gorangers

    gorangers Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Haven area
    Juicy.
     
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  24. Otlset

    Otlset I think I am I think

    Location:
    Temecula, CA
    Mellifluous.
     
  25. kozy814

    kozy814 Forum Resident

    My best description is "depth". Tube sound is like layers. Like butter in between slices of warm bread. You can "see" it going deep into he soundstage. "Solid-State" is like everything getting flatter and hard.
     
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