Discussion: SH Forum Influence on "The Industry"

'People complain I take out all the pops and hiss. If you want noise, listen to vinyl! Duh-hyuk-hyuk-hyuk!' Astley just doesn't get it. He just doesn't get the loss of musical information, the unfavorable changes in the sound, etc., etc. All he hears in the loss of noise. It's like the equivalent taking someone's portrait and brushing over their face until the person looks like a mannequin, and saying "I got rid of all the blemishes! It's perfect!"

 

Matt, I think you're wrong - I think that Astley _does_ get it. We on this forum tend to forget that _most_ people (not those on this forum obviously) want their remastered CDs free of pops and hiss.

The audiophile community - heck, even the most die-hard fans of a particular artist - make up a very small minority of the music-buying public. Whether Astley wants to use NR, compression, etc. or whether it's forced upon him doesn't really matter. He gets the results that the record company, the artists, and the lion's share of the public wants to hear.

We are elitist in our no-NR, no-compression philosophy - and thank goodness that Steve and a few others share our views (or we theirs) and occassionally remaster something that appeals to our superior (and yes, elitist) audio sensibilities! As HZ and others have noted, hopefully by having Astley, Mew, or other mastering guys pop by here, they might better understand where we are coming from in our distaste of their work. I don't think our small group will necessarily change how they go about doing things, but maybe it will get them to think twice about just how much tinkering is really neccessary.

Ray

 

The "Hairspray" soundtrack CD from 1988 does have lots of pops and clicks on the oldies that were dubbed from records but it is notable for a great sounding stereo mix of "Foot Stompin'" by the Flares. BTW, The Bug by Jerry Dallman does sound like it has been mastered from a very scratchy record. It does sound better than a lot of today's mastering.

 

The thing is though, he *doesn't* get it. While *any* noise reduction is bad, I've heard some uses of it that are better than others. For example, the Beatles' Red and Blue CDs don't sound all *that* bad, even with the NR. However, Astley's use of NR is among the worst I've ever heard. Artifacts everywhere, very shrill sound, etc. He simply doesn't know how to use his tools.

Not only that, he makes *blatant* mistakes. Like using fake stereo versions. Or pulling tapes that have (very obvious) missing overdubs. Or using wrong versions of songs. This isn't just a matter of "questionable mastering".

 

As far as I'm concerned, the jury is still "out" on the resurrected MoFi. So far they haven't shown me much, and I'm not expecting much - but I'd love to be proven wrong!

I'm sure the big labels don't see MoFi as any kind of threat whatsoever, and that is the point I am making. Maybe if you were to order 5 million copies, instead of five, that would get someone's attention!

 

Re: Re: Re: Discussion: SH Forum Influence on "The Industry"

Hmmm, I'm a Bill basher from long ago (old BSN newsletter daze when you wrote to Mike C. and waited for him to set the type); I'm a LITTLE more thoughtful in what I say about him and others in general these days. I think knowing how much dig 'em up archival work Mr. I has done has made me less inclined to be so mean spirited (although the Nuggets box still honks me off) - however, a lotta stereo did come out under his watch, even if he shys away from it now... Methinks I'd be less inclined to bash on Mr. Mew and Mr. Astley if they had made some positive contributions to upgrading sound through archaeological digs that turned up swell multitracks or great source tapes. 'Sides, Mr. I eschews noise reduction (which we all pretty much don't like), unlike our other pals...

 

Focus on the issues, forget remarks about character. And the bad jokes.

People become enamored with the ease with which we can communicate our thoughts and opinions now, e-mail, fax, forums; and forget the impact their words can have.

Also, simple courtesy goes a long way. The grease of civilization.

Good communication is everything, doing it well is a very worthy goal.

 

OK, I'll play along.

It's obvious Jon Astley or Peter Mew aren't going to be making a lot of friends around here anytime soon, but my question is this: These guys work for the label and do the (re)mastering, but doesn't the label (exec's) have the final approval on what is sent out to the general public. Do they actually listen to the product first or just take it on faith that it sounds great (allegedly) ? So where's the real problem at ? The guy at the mixing board or the guy at the board room table ?

Somehow I don't think Leonard Chess was ever this jaded. At least he talked to his record buying public.

Best, Ed

 

If we invite him for breakfast and he doesn't show, does that mean he feels that the food's bad, that he's busy, or he just forgot? We don't even know if he's even jaded.

We have no clue about the Where, What and Why.

Oh, also, it's also very true that what we've talked about regarding poor mastering overseas, might still be, in large, ignored with or without respect.

It's a small world, that audio business, but sometimes the sound doesn't come through.

 

I think the interest in Steve's work comes more from the fact that these companies are making money out of audiophile releases and know Steve and his work. The are also aware of the demand level for DCC golds. So I think it's a lot more about $$ than this forum. Steve's work sells - and ebay has probably done more to spread the word than we have. When the average browser sees a 24 Karat Hits or a Nat sell for over $100, they must wonder WHY. And most sellers of DCCs make a point to praise Steve. It's free advertising of the BEST kind. In the long run, the fact that DCC cratered may have actually had a positive effect - a lot of people who browse ebay end up buying things because OTHER people want them. So people who would NEVER have paid $25 for a DCC or MFSL when they were available are ante-ing up a lot more because they are OOP. And a lot of those people become converts when they hear what $25 WOULD have bought them.

Absolutely true. Of COURSE Astley gets it. So does Mew. These men are highly respected and in demand. Some artists WANT their work mastered by these guys.

The truth is, CDs changed the way people listen to music. LPs, and even cassettes, were INVOLVING. They drew you INTO the music. Then along came CDs and the CRAPPY sounding CD players they made for years. They were convenient and sounded great AT FIRST. But the music was UNINVOLVING. You didn't just get sucked into how something SOUNDED the way you did with analog. Now a couple of generations have passed and people's listening habits and expectations have changed. Music is something you do while you're doing something else.

On a LOT of systems, the compressed ear-bleed remasters probably sound better to the people who own the equipment than Steve's stuff does. Astley and Mew are not mastering for audiophiles - they are mastering for the least common denominator. The way 45s used to be mixed for AM.

Ranting and raving about these guys being assholes isn't going to accomplish anything, and it probably isn't even true. Astley and Mew and others like them are probably nice guys who are doing their best at what they think their jobs are. Obviously, SOMEONE thinks they are doing a good job. People BUY their stuff. The problem is, a lot of people who buy music today have never HEARD an LP, and probably have never even SEEN a tube. They think the ear-bleed remasters are how things are supposed to sound.

MAYBE the Stone's re-issues will start to change that. I ran into a guy in Best Buy Wednesday who was buying a stack of the Stone's reissues. He'd just bought Beggar's Banquet at another store, and after hearing the first couple of songs on his car CD player he was passing Best Buy and decided he had to have a bunch more. I started talking to him and he didn't even know what SACD WAS. He'd never heard of MFSL or the London imports. He had bought Beggar's because he saw an in-store display at the FIRST store and wanted to see if the new versions sounded better than the old ABKCOS. He said Beggars was a revelation - he said he had no idea MUSIC could sound that good. The guy was IMPRESSED. So I told him about Steve and DCC and this forum.

The point is, bitching about guys like Astley and Mew isn't going to change anything. They probably DO consider us the "lunatic fringe." We are, for all intents and purposes. And personal attacks on these guys is misguided and just plain WRONG.

If you want more work like Steve's, educate your friends, and tell them to educate THEIR friends. Most people don't even know what to listen FOR. I auditioned a couple of SACD and DVD-A players at Tweeter (a national mid- to low-high-end chain) a couple of weeks ago and ended up giving the SALESMAN a lesson in how to judge equipment and sound quality. And he had worked there three years and new his equipment. He just didn't understand SOUND. I had him kill the subwoofers and play the redbook layer on three different players, on two sets of speakers. We listened to Bob Marley, Miles, and some good old rock. I had him play a bunch of stuff with a lot of bass, then some stuff with a lot of mids. THEN we listened to SACD (stereo and multi) Needless to say, his opinion of what the best sounding player in the store was changed before I left. The guy spent three hours with me and I didn't buy anything, but he actually THANKED me when I left. And the next time he tries to sell a player he won't just try to sell great bass and detail - he'll talk about detail and depth and mids.

The point is, the general public is going to have to WANT to hear great sound before anything will change. If more people hear stuff and think "I didn't know MUSIC could sound like that" they will become MUCH more discriminating and their expectations will change. And maybe Astley and Mew will start putting out stuff with reall hiss that sounds more like what Steve does. At least, I hope so. In the meantime, my vote goes to stop bashing these guys. It's one thing to criticize how their work sounds to YOU - just as long as you realize much of the music buying public doesn't agree with you - look how many copies of Beatles #1s sold. A LOT of people LIKE that crap. So don't blame Astley and Mew, et. al. for the crappy sound on their releases - blame the uneducated masses who buy millions of copies of their work. Because until the general public realizes what MUSIC can sound like and WANTS the"breath of life" you won't get much of it. And much of the industry will continue to think of us as the "lunatic fringe."

 

I think a good and simple rule of thumb would be to post our criticisms (or praise?) of Astley and Mew's work as if they were regular readers of this forum. It's a lot easier on this internet thing to spout off anonymously about people if we don't think they'll hear us. Let's consider that they _do_ hear us and try not to sound so rude when we post out comments.

Ray

 

I don't believe there is an influence from this forum! Just my opinion!

 

I believe every opinion, complaint, praise, etc. counts and "is " taken seriously. This forum does make a difference.

 

I'm with you on this HZ,

This is a forum that draws me back constantly because I feel that everyone's opinion is valued here.

It has become THE place for me to visit for intelligent discussion on music and other burning issues...to be among friends and like minded people makes such a difference!

I think we DO influence opinion - just look at the Zombies SACD that Steve is doing...the track listing reflects members opinion here. That influence can extend beyong Steve as we know biz people are interested enough to check out the posts here.

So I say...let's keep it friendly but do be critical of bad sound quality where this is due. Let's celebrate great releases where that's due and most of all, let's treat others as we would wish to be treated ourselves and at least respect others views (but not necessarily agree with them!)

Cheers!

 

[rude comment removed - HZ]

Jon *doesn't* get it. This goes beyond "crappy mastering". This speaks of his whole attitude to handling old music.

"We used the wrong version? Oh, sorry, we didn't have the LP to compare it with."

When you are the *producer* of a reissue, IT IS YOUR JOB to 1) make sure you have that LP, 2) make sure the version you are using matches it. This isn't rocket science.

I don't think anyone goes to Jon Astley and says "I love the sound you get, master my CD!" Jon has connections, plain and simple. He's related to Pete, so Pete has him do his work for him. Probably cheaper than sending it out somewhere else, right? Then the word gets out that Jon is responsible for all this Who stuff, so he must not be too bad, right? People talk to Pete, and Pete says "Yeah, Jon does good work" despite the fact that he probably hasn't listened to half of it. Then people think "well, if he's good enough for Pete Townshend, he's good enough for me."

This isn't about people going and listening to the work of a bunch of different engineers and saying "Yes, I do think Jon Astley is the clear winner of this bunch."

Why does Universal keep letting Jon master things? Because it really isn't up to them. For the most part, Jon does stuff and sends it to Universal. If they *really* wanted they could approach Trinifold/Pete on the issue, but it seems as if they don't want to "create a stir". People still buy the discs regardless, so what does it matter?

The thing is, most people out there don't know the difference, and don't care at all. Witness the number of people listening to 128 kbps MP3s. It's not that they "like" Astley's work (over, say, Steve's), it's that they don't know any better, and don't care to.

A lot more people take notice when you do something like release a song without its lead guitar...

 

Re: Re: Discussion: SH Forum Influence on "The Industry"

Forget bad jokes!!!! Are you trying to put certain Colonials out of business??

Many forum members have a great sense of humo(u)r. IMO this adds a lot to the interactions. Humo(u)r tones down potential hostility and it can be plain enjoyable in its own right.

Bad jokes, on the other hand, are hard to monitor. Get rid of them and there go half of my posts!

John

 

I agree with you on that one, John B.

I'm sure when people read my posts, they think, "Oh, it's that marginally talented guy again".

Humor is a great thing. There are many things to make fun of; they way you all dress, for example!

 

Re: Re: Re: Discussion: SH Forum Influence on "The Industry"

Only half

All the best - Andrew

 

Not to be rude here, but...what's your point ?

I used Leonard Chess as a perfect example of a man who not only owned the record label but also produced the recordings and personally distributed the product to stores from the trunk of his car. Chess was known for talking to the people who bought the music and getting their feedback. That feedback certainly affected his opinion on his business. He knew the music buying consumers were the one's that were making him a rich man. I'd be listening too.

I realize that this was 40-50 years ago and the industry has changed beyond compare but when was the last time any major label showed any interest in it's product by talking to the consumer to get their feedback ? The only thing I'm seeing is the industry blaming the consumer for poor sales because of the use of modern technology (mp3's, CD burning, etc.).

I short, how can one learn anything new when one already thinks they know everything ?

Best, Ed

 

I believe some of them *have* been lurking under ficticious names. It's not scary to me but a bit frustrating, since they won't come out and interact with us. A lot of our gripes could be put to rest if *only* they could be addressed by them.

 

Well, you DO have a point. also something I just realized, if a *name* engineer or reissue producer did decide to make himself available, this forum might start to revolve around that person and his work. Maybe they don't participate because they want to keep this forum as it is. It would go against everything that Jeff and Steve want this forum to be.