SH Spotlight Distortion free jazz trumpets in the 1920s-40s. But the 50-60s? WHAT HAPPENED? Evil Neumann mics?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Steve Hoffman, Feb 9, 2017.

  1. Reamonnt

    Reamonnt Active Member

    Location:
    Ireland
  2. BradOlson

    BradOlson Country/Christian Music Maven

    Get the rest of this series.
     
  3. Reamonnt

    Reamonnt Active Member

    Location:
    Ireland
    I will try to get them all, thank you.
     
  4. misterjones

    misterjones Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York City
  5. Hubert jan

    Hubert jan Active Member

    Me too, that is why I dont buy CD's anymore, too much bad ones, even fifties reissues.
    Restoring what is missing impossible. What about CD: "Perfect sound forever" ? Do you remember the advertisements of manufacturing plants with men in space suit's ?
     
  6. johnny 99

    johnny 99 Exiled On Main Street

    Location:
    Toronto
    I must have at least 150 Jazz CD's (Columbia Legacy remasters, Blue Note RVG remasters, Blue Note 1980's McMaster versions, Blue Note Connoisseur Series CD's...) and for the most part I really like the sound of all of them. It's some of my favourite music ever.
    I have never heard the criticism hurled at a lot of these CD's anywhere else like I have on this forum. I know quite a few people that have many RVG remasters in particular and they like them and listen to them regularly (and many of them are audiophiles too)
    Sometimes I think you guys are all looking to hear flaws that aren't even really there.
    It gets so damn tiresome always hearing the RVG's (especially) bashed on this forum because the truth is that many of them sound very, very good. Some sound better than others, yes, but it's a case by case basis. The way I've read some posts on this forum regarding them, you'd think they were all bad because they all get 'tarred with the same brush' it seems. It's misleading to many and not entirely true. The RVG's do not all sound bad; I remember reading somewhere that many listeners were dissatisfied with the "McMaster" versions of Blue Note CD's back in the 80's and were crying out for remastered titles. Now they're not happy with these either and they're back to praising the older ones...

    They stopped making the Blue Note RVG's back in Feb. 2009. The last 2 titles I bought were Jackie McLean's "Bluesnik" and "One Step Beyond" and they both sounded really good. I also remember comparing a couple of the XRCD's that a friend of mine had against the RVG discs that I had and I didn't hear that discernible a difference (and certainly not one that warranted spending about $45. to buy one of these XRCD titles)

    To each their own I suppose as I know there are many respected people that post about Jazz CD's on this forum, but no way in hell would I ever get rid of my beloved Jazz CD's just because some people on this forum don't think they sound good or think that the trumpet's sound distorted. I don't think I've ever once thought that in the 17 years I've been listening to these discs and digging Lee Morgan or Freddie Hubbard or Donald Byrd...

    Call me confused...:confused:
     
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
    SteelyTom, budwhite, 5-String and 2 others like this.
  7. Steve G

    Steve G Forum Resident

    Location:
    los angeles
    His hi-hats always really make me crazy too. I thought it was just something he/his record buying public was into. It's interesting to think it was an equipment issue - do you really think they would have just let that slide? I always figured it was the early 1960s version of the loudness wars!
     
  8. John Moschella

    John Moschella Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Christiansburg, VA
    IMO, the Van Gelder piano sounds worse, so pick your poison.
     
  9. spencer1

    spencer1 Forum Resident

    When did they change to recording on magnetic tape?
    Is there a big change in sound that you can hear?
    Even though my 93 year old dad was big into Big Band music of the 30's and 40's it's an era I have neglected and should explore.
    "Artie Shaw!"
    Yeah, I get it dad.
     
  10. Bytor Snowdog

    Bytor Snowdog Active Member

    Location:
    Texas
    Certainly I agree 16/44 isnt perfect. But whats wrong with the CD's of which we speak isnt the format, but rather the mixing and mastering.
     
  11. baconbadge

    baconbadge Active Member

    Location:
    Queens, NY
    Oh man, check out the piano sound on the '57 Sonny Clark Trio record that RVG did in Hackensack... Amazing sound! Piano is a notoriously difficult instrument to record, but I think RVG's piano sounds are my favorites...
     
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  12. John Moschella

    John Moschella Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Christiansburg, VA
    Wow, it sounds nothing like a real piano, which incidentally I just heard last week during a Prokofiev piano concerto.

    I will direct you to some the the Contemporary recordings from the late 50's by Andre Previn, now they knew how to record a piano, run circles around the VG recordings.
     
    SteelyTom likes this.
  13. kevnhuys

    kevnhuys Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY

    Clipping isn't CD's fault. Garbage in, garbage out. But you're right about 'clipping repair'. It's not a faithful restoration of what was distorted in the original signal... it's a guess.
     
  14. jamiehowarth

    jamiehowarth Well-Known Member

    Hey Steve - A couple reasons beyond the several you mentioned.

    condensers ring at 10-12 kHz - older mics even lower... ribbons don't - their resonances are more like 100 Hz and damped. The time/freq (waterfall) plot of a 67 shows a lot of overhang which in the presence of sustained tonal Hf creates a integration IM as the incoming signal beats with the existing ring.

    Add to that the fact that horns (any annular mouthpiece) have asymmetrical overtones and the charged condenser membrane likes to move asymmetrically also, if so excited, because of the unilateral pull of the backplate. Prove this by turning the mic 180 degrees in figure 8 and the sound changes radically.

    Ribbons don't care bout dat.
     
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  15. crispi

    crispi Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    Spring reverb. He only got an EMT plate in 1958.
     
  16. yasujiro

    yasujiro Forum Resident

    Location:
    tokyo
    Would you please elaborate, Steve? Does the same story apply to RCA's Living Stereo classical recordings which you always praise with the Westrex-distortion? Thank you.
     
  17. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Audiophile Music Mastering Your Host Thread Starter

    No, not at all. Just the big band recordings from the 1950s. RCA-Victor seemed to use the flatline of the Ampex to help in compression. Sounds dreadful. Not on the three-tracks, only the stereo mixes.
     
    yasujiro likes this.
  18. W.B.

    W.B. Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York, NY, USA
    Wonder how trumpets would have sounded on RVG-recorded tracks if Dr. Van Gelder had used Altecs or Shures or Electro-Voices rather than Neumanns . . .
     
  19. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Audiophile Music Mastering Your Host Thread Starter

    Probably not much better. I think his problem was the constant redlining of all the equipment.
     
  20. mlew

    mlew Well-Known Member

    Just getting into Sonny Clark after hearing Cool Struttin on XM radio.
    Put the CD on my recently re-connected stereo and the trumpet seemed "harsh".
    I thought my hearing was impaired by all the listening I've been doing on
    Electronic devices and attributed the harshness to that.
    Thanks Steve for your explanation!
     
  21. vanhooserd

    vanhooserd Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville,TN
    I know RVG seems to have been very strong-willed, but he was not the producer or label-owner, so it seems some of the credit/blame for the sound should go to them. I agree with you about his recordings for Prestige & labels (Savoy, for example) other than Blue Note.
     
  22. William Bryant

    William Bryant Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Meridian, ID
    So what about today? Does something like a Royer SF-24 properly tame a trumpet's fury?
     
  23. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Interesting post.

    I'm curious, Steve - what turntable and cartridge do you use to play your 78s?
     
  24. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Audiophile Music Mastering Your Host Thread Starter

    In my gear profile.
     
  25. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Forum Resident

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Your equipment (profile) is impressive.
     

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