Do the more basic stylus shapes (conical and elliptical) cause records to get worn out quicker?

Yes, I agree. This is both vinyl and not vinyl at the same time, with a slight nod not being vinyl.

 

African records? What's that?

 

Wait, what the what? That's not how it works, the needle does not jump from one concentric groove to another, they are most assuredly a continuous spiral. something else must have been going on in that video clip, or just a fluke there...

 

Someone else caught that, too!

 

Yeah It's all one groove of course...

What I meant is - I thought that the groove on a record is one evenly descending concentric spiral.

It's not - it's - circle / move in to the next location / circle / move in to the next location / circle, etc......

I tried more records than just the ones I posted but you can see the movement I'm talking about in all the clips (tough to see in the off-center pressing). I was very surprised to see this. Maybe I'll try to take some more video with more records and different carts and needles that I have laying around here this weekend. It's a little tricky to get the microscope set up and focused.

 

well, idk, i would think it is a continuous/smooth spiral, otherwise wouldn't there be a chance for mis-tracknig every time? but idk maybe there is a little bit of jaggedness as the lathe adjusts on each rotation. someone around here must know...

 

Distrust any answer to this question without factual evidence which probably doesn't exist

 

I don't know if you were just joking or not. African records are notorious for being in poor condition.

 

Um, no, it's not what you describe. You may be describing it incorrectly, but the record groove is one continuous groove getting tighter and tighter toward the inside of the record. It's not a round groove, then a jump to a tighter round groove, and then a jump to another, and another. Nope.

 

Yes, it actually is. It is one groove, yes, but it's not continuously tighter and tighter. It moves in closer to the center in a noticeable movement (under a microscope) at the same point at each rotation. Look at the video I posted and watch. I only tried about 4 records but they all did the same thing. It could be just one option or the certain mastering on those records. I was extremely surprised to see it.

 

What I see is an artifact combining the tiny warps on the record and the angle that you shot that video (which was interesting). You know the groove continuously spirals in, that is how it is cut.
Try making another video, with another different record, and shoot it straight at the cart.

 

No, I believe that your video is not showing what you describe, and that as JohnO says above, is some sort of artifact of the way you shot it. It would make no sense, and would jack up the tracking speed, data flow, etc., if records were cut the way you describe. It makes no sense to cut them that way, and all the sense in the world to cut them as a continuous decreasing-spiral toward the spindle.

 

Like records that are pressed in Africa? Apparently, my collection has a hole in it as I've missed an entire genre.

 

Well technically other than South Africa many African records sold in Africa were pressed in Greece or India. But yes I am referring to records made for African record companies to be sold at African record stores.

Your wallet thanks your omission. African records routinely go for $75-$1000 even in VG condition.

 

Too many of those records wore out because their owners DID NOT BOTHER TO REPLACE STYLI often enough, those Osmium and Sapphires had to be replaced very often, and had very short lifespans. And those crystal cartridges packaged phonos also were very low compliance most of the time. Quality and durability minded owners used manual turntables and used magnetic cartridges with good compliance like the GE RPX or the Pickerings or similar type offerings. The low levels used in cutting didn't help things either. Use poor cartridges and tonearms, your record collection's lifespan is shorter. Mistracking damages records the same way then as it does now. Ignore this at your peril.

 

Whaaaaaaaat??????????

 

It's interesting listening to some of those old ceramic and crystal cartridges, though. My opinion of sapphire tips changed completely once I gave them a listen. The sapphire tips actually sound better than diamond. They are smoother and fuller. Diamonds sound a bit harsh and, well, "hard" in comparison. Sapphire tips were a lot less expensive than diamond, which leads most people to think that they are cheap compared to diamond and, therefore, a budget solution. But it's actually the opposite. A discerning listener would choose sapphire for critical listening, I believe. The increased frequency of replacement actually means that sapphire tips cost a lot more in the short and long run. You had to be serious to listen to sapphire. Diamond styli, in comparison, cost three times as much as a sapphire, and in my opinion don't sound quite as good, but people probably were drawn to how long they were supposed to last and so, in effect, they were the budget option. Following the literature of the day, if a sapphire tip lasted between 10 and 50 hours, and a diamond tip lasted up to 1000 hours, you would potentially save somewhere between 20x to 100x by using diamond over sapphire for 1000 hours of listening.

That's if you believe, as I do, that sapphire tips sound significantly better than diamond tips in a ceramic cartridge.

I'm always tempted to figure out a way to listen to a sapphire tip in a moving magnet cartridge, but I haven't discovered an easy way to set one up yet.

The later ceramic cartridges, like the Sonotone 9TA or even the 16TA really don't require in inordinate amount of tracking force. Mine work great at just 2g in my Technics SL-1200 if you beef up the arm mass using the auxiliary weight and a headshell weight. The direct coupling makes for a very fast and highly detailed performance. Call me crazy, but my 9TA reminds me a lot of my Audio-Technica OC9ML/II in speed and detail. The AT is probably a little more detailed, which is really a compliment to ceramic cartridges with conical tips; but the 9TA is much faster.

 

Sapphire tips are foolhardy for those with valuable record collections. Most non strain gauge ceramics today are also too high risk. And for me having to replace a Sapphire every 3 weeks or sooner, not acceptable. The ceramic cartridge toll on my record collection when young is why I gave up portable phonos, crude changers in them, and sapphire styli. I had to replace records from quick wear and damage too often. That often cost me good money I wanted to spend on other records, tapes, and the odd concert when I was 9 years old.

I demand a minimum of 1,000 sides out of a stylus, and demand NO MISTRACKING ever. Sonotone made good ones years ago, but there are no new good reliable ceramics made today. Save for SoundSmith's strain gauge. As our host said, mistracking not accepted. He didn't accept it young, I didn't. I had to save for better gear and kitbuild my first system to get records which lasted. And the sooner I got my first AR XA and Shure M91ED, the happier I was. The ceramic cartridge and sapphire styli for me are very expensive compared to what I use currently.

I respect what you're hearing. But my record collection is worth more than my HiFi, and demands respect and care. It is difficult, expensive and replacing it is more physical effort. I want it in top condition at my beck and call when I want to hear it. I want to never have to replace a single record again (unless it was used, and I found an upgrade copy) . No ceramics for me for good records, no sapphire styli either (save for speciality 78 RPM work, replaced often). My gear is also revealing of wear, my ear is trained. I respect you much more than I disrespect you. Sometimes cheapest is most expensive over the long haul.

 

I hear you. I wasn't advocating to you or anyone to remove your cartridge and replace it with a ceramic cartridge and a sapphire stylus. I was saying that those old cartridges aren't as bad as people tend to say they are. I think we can all agree that a fifty hour use interval at the high end is too little for today's standards. But that doesn't mean they necessarily damage your records--as I said, 9TA and 16TA both track perfectly at just 2 grams. That's certainly modern figure. They are fun to play, just like an old Volvo P1800 is fun to drive, but I'm not sure I'd want to be always futzing with the carburetor, which I hear is pretty notorious for requiring regular and finicky maintenance. But there are those who would and do and doing so probably keeps those who like to be constantly involved with their equipment occupied, I bet.

Can't argue with any of your commentary in terms of practical reason and logic. But, you might be surprised at how one of these cartridges performs on a table with a decent arm. I would gather that most of the damage done to your records is more likely the fault of the portable phonos and the crude changers in them. Also, those may have been cheap ceramic cartridges, too. I'm not using those. I haven't heard any more mistracking than I do with modern magnetic cartridges. The level of detail that they are able to bring out through a .7 conical is simply astounding. Since I first heard that, I got my hands on a very late Philips GP390 and I was simply blown away. This is a cartridge that is as rich, detailed, and light-tracking as any good modern magnetic.

But most of the time, you will find some kind of magnetic cartridge hanging on my arm, if you looked. But plenty of times, if you didn't look, you wouldn't know at all that you were listening to a ceramic.

 

Also, another thing to know. Just because your cartridge and fancy line contact stylus can go to 40 Khz, does not always mean it is the best playback tool in your arsenal, or play back that 1950's Jazz or Blues LP ideally with no more than 15-16K of useful response, sometimes all you get with the forensic stylus is out of audio range cutting head rumble, surface noise exacerbated, and other undesired artifacts. Sometimes less can be more, when all you want is the music. People with wide range of vinyl eras, pressing quality, and music tastes often need options. I use my Shure broadcast cartridges for what patient ot does, and also for my 45 RPM single playback. I save my Shibatas and other such high end tips for records they excel at reproducing best. I keep a good range of cartridge and styli options for every microgroove (and soon to be 78 RPM) and transcription playback need, and up to the best superdiscs, and all points in between.

 

Here's an update of sorts. Still just have the nagaoka mp110 and the shure m35x in my collection. I did lots of extensive testing with recordings in my system to finally decide what cart is better sounding to my ears. And the answer is, pretty complicated (to say the least). Most used albums i bought (even ones in vg+ and nm condition) just sound better with the m35x. It honestly depends what you want in your sound. I feel some brand new pressings of records can get a slight advantage when using the nagaoka, but for the most part the m35x is a damn good sounding cartridge. Some albums have an imperceptible different to my ears, which is insane. Considering one of these is a cheap 80 dollar conical and the other is an 180 dollar elliptical (everything is overpriced in this country it seems). When it comes to needle dropping, I feel the shure m35x matches the sound quality of the same tracks playing lossless through my tidal machine. Regarding the whole thing about the basic stylus shapes wearing out records, I still haven't really come to a conclusion on it. But i have been using the m35x quite frequently on even brand new records, so i am not really overly worried about it causing more wear. Of course this is just my opinion, but it feels like wasteful worrying. I am just kinda shocked how such a cheap cartridge can hold it's own against something double the price. Much more than the shape of the stylus matters when it comes to the final sound you get.

 

So let me ask...and this is addressed to McLover and anyone else that has multiple cartridge, from a practical standpoint do you have multiple turntables, multiple tone arms to swap out, one turntable or do you replace cartridges each time you want to listen to different music?

As for me, I own one VPI turntable and bought a second uni-pivot arm wand which I mounted a different cartridge. So when I have the pristine albums, my Japanese pressings, Classical or Jazz recordings I will use the armwand with the Ortofon 2m Black. If I listen to albums that are older, not perfect pressings, etc, I will swap out arms and use the armwand with the Dynavector 10x5 I mounted on it.

 

I have cartridges in headshells mounted, and aligned, and ready to swap rapidly. Every archivist does.

 

Dude, just play your records. Enjoy. Don't worry above it such tripe.

 

Even many casual archivists like myself doing "needle drops" at home have something like this, though not as much as McLover has. I have two turntables in my main system connected to my computer for needle drops and a small handful of spare styli and carts. The one thing I'm missing is a conical stylus which I think would be ideal for 45s.

The cart in my avatar is on a "spare" headshell that I originally purchased for my Realistic LAB-440 so I would be able to swap out. The turntable wasn't designed with a black tonearm and silver headshell LOL. I'm too lazy to swap the Stanton with the other headshell it would mean completely re-aligning both carts. No thanks. It's super easy to swap out the head shell - all that's needed to complete the swap is a simple tonearm balance.