Do you run with Anti-Skating on or off on your Turntable?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by TheVinylAddict, Dec 10, 2017.

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  1. Thomas_A

    Thomas_A Forum Resident

    Location:
    Uppsala, Sweden
    Think of it this way. The stylus gets pulled along the tangent of the groove. For an linear tracking arm the arm pivot is perfect in line with that tangent and the force is just going through the pivot. There is no resultat sideway force. However a traditional arm there is overhang and different angles of the tangent of the groove and the pivot-stylus tip. The difference results in a force pulling the arm inwards.
     
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  2. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    Here's a reference that I think will explain it all. I'm going to post first, read later.:)
    http://www.audiomods.co.uk/papers/kogen_skatingforce.PDF
     
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  3. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    As Tony L mentioned earlier, stylus profile is a very big factor in terms of setting antiskate.

    I run a Gyrodec with 2 arms, a Jelco 750D with a modified Ortofon MC 20 Super for stereo and a Sumiko FT-3 with an AT 3-Mono/LP for mono records.

    I never did seem to have much luck with the blank record method or Peter Ledermann's recommended method. In the end I've settled on advice from AJ van den Hul

    (his phono faq which can be downloaded here

    Van Den Hul | Phono Cartridges: FAQs | Instruction | Van Den Hul

    has all kinds of information including advice on setting antiskate)

    That advice is to set antiskate at approximately 1/3 of VTF for more exotic stylus profiles (my Ortofon has a pretty decent aftermarket microridge on it-likely from Namiki Stylus) and right around VTF for more "brutish" conicals. So that is what I've done (and also found to sound the best so it has worked out reasonably well ;)), with a VTF setting of 1.8 and antiskate on the Ortofon at around .6-.7 and VTF and antiskate set to around 2.3 with the AT 3/Mono.

    I have a few test records here, mainly used stuff I've picked up over the years, but have read so many horror stories of people using test records to set antiskate and usually ending up with way too much that I've never even bothered to attempt setting antiskate with one.

    Ultimately antiskate is a moving target with different requirements at different points in the record-it is much more art than science I think and probably black art at that. I think you really need to set by ear, but I think AJ's recommendations put you in a pretty decent ball park to start and you would think that he should be somewhat knowledgeable on the process.
     
  4. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    It's a common misunderstanding. Centripetal not centrifugal. Centrifugal would send us hurtling off the surface of the planet too.

    Nearly 15 years with an MMF7. I use little AS. Waiting for a scale to arrive to measure the weight system on the MMF.
    Have tried the Hi-Fi test record and it calls for too much AS via the torture test. Have tried the blank surface too. I fall into the slower motion of the arm moving inwards category.
     
  5. Bob_in_OKC

    Bob_in_OKC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    I have seen many times the advice to set anti-skating to 1/2, 1/3, or some similar fraction. For me, I choose to follow Rega’s advice. Applying a fraction would be me sort of following their advice, but making a baseless assumption that they missed by a multiple of 2 or 3.
     
  6. Bananas&blow

    Bananas&blow It's just that demon life has got me in its sway

    Location:
    Pacific Beach, CA
    I have an upgraded Thorens TD 160 from Vinyl Nirvana. Moded Rega 202 (I think) arm. Ortofon Bronze cart. The stylus pressure is set to 1.5g with a digital stylus tracking gauge. The arm has it's own anti-skating setting on the base. I had it set to 1.5 to match the stylus tracking. I had regular skipping issues and found that adjusting the anti-skate to .75 eliminated the skipping problem. I have it set there most of the time. I've gotten the needle alignment dialed in significantly better these days and seem to have the table set up perfectly.

    Rarely I run into a skipping problem on a record. If I do I set the anti-skate to zero and it usually goes away. But the next record I'll set the anti-skate back to .75. I notice no different in SQ regardless of where I have the anti-skate set. I have also never noticed any damage to my LP's due to antiskate issues. More just issues with skipping. I think some of the skipping issues early on were due to the table not being completely level at the point of the needle hitting the record (this is more complicated and important with a suspension table like the Thorens) and not having the needle aligned properly. I spent many night of frustration prior to getting the table dialed in. But now that it is, I'm very happy and get to focus on the tunes.

    What school did you attend @TheVinylAddict ? I noticed you are from AZ, I'm a wildcat myself and also took a few physics courses which did not come in handy setting up my TT :)
     
  7. russk

    russk Forum Resident

    Location:
    Syracuse NY
    I have a stock Rega RP6. I set the antiskate as directed by Rega. I also use the HiFi News test LP. Pretty much as described here

    HFNRR Test record
     
  8. HenryH

    HenryH Miserable Git

    1/ Linn LP12 - Lingo PS - Linto Phono amp - Cirkus and Trampolin Upgrades
    Running this set up for close to 15 years. The TT is about 25 yrs old. The phono amp and an Akiva cartridge were added about six years ago.

    2/ Naim ARO unipivot tonearm using lowest counterweight setting for anti skate.

    3/ Physics. The rotation of the LP will create a force pulling the stylus towards the center of the disc, requiring a counterforce to maintain a stable setting of the stylus within the groove.

    4/ In theory, too low anti skate will produce distortion and a decrease in dynamics in the right channel, and vice versa. In a well design TT/Tonearm you really only need a small amount of anti skate to counter the effects of the inherent force. For most tables, the manufacturer's settings should be fine. Otherwise, set and listen as previously described.
     
  9. Tony L

    Tony L Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    I’d only think of that as a preliminary setting as Rega can’t know what cartridge/stylus you are using so the settings can not possible be exact given a different amount is theoretically needed for a conical, eliptical or fine-line tip. For example a Nagaoaka MP100, 200 or 500 will need different values, as would say a Ortofon 2M Red, Blue, Black.
     
  10. Helom

    Helom Forum member

    Location:
    U.S.
    I use this method for my Acoustic Signature Wow XL w/ TA-700 tonearm. I've had this turntable for about a year. I find it works well.
     
  11. jcmusic

    jcmusic Forum Resident

    Location:
    Terrytown, La.
    When I had my VPI Scoutmaster I used the twisted wire antiskate as suggested by VPI, now I have a Redpoint Model D TT with a TriPlanar MKVII UII arm with a Soundsmith cartridge. I use very little antiskate and I use it the way Peter describes it slowly going towards the center in the non groove area.
     
  12. Kyle Mooney

    Kyle Mooney Kwisatz Haderach

    Location:
    Central PA
    I am using the Pioneer PLX-1000 for 2 years.
    I use the anti-skate featured on the TT
    I use it because it is there and seems to make logical sense.
    I use the HiFi News test record anti-bias tracks and headphones to set the anti-skate. On the test record's most torturous track I set the anti-skate to where the distortion is heard equally from both L&R channels which currently is 4 on the dial. This is a value double that of my VTF @ 1.8 (AT150mlx). I have read that some think the HiFi test record causes one to set anti-skate at too high a value. I do not know either way. Seems to me having both channels at equal distortion output makes logical sense. I have no problems with tracking or IGD. I have also read that the numbers on the anti-skate dial on the PLX-1000 are actually double from normal values (eg: those found on the Technics)- in which case that would mean that I am actually setting my AS to a value that is more equal to my VTF.
     
  13. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    I have a Basis Debut turntable with a Vector 3 arm. I use a test record (Shure ERA IV) that has test bands with increasing levels of modulation. I adjust antiskating to get to the highest playing level without distortion and with even distortion in both channels (at levels that exceed the capability of my cartridge). This measures the right amount of anti-skating for extreme tracking conditions. A cartridge manufacturer claims that skating forces are actually lower under normal tracking conditions so anti-skating really should be set at a lower level than the level for optimal tracking of test grooves. I have accepted this advice and so I back off anti-skating just a little bit from what is best for tracking the test record.

    I have used this method on my arm and on a number of other arms, such as the Graham Phantom II and SME 309, the amount of anti-skating is MUCH less than what is recommended by the arm manufacturer.
     
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  14. IanL

    IanL Senior Member

    Location:
    Oneonta, NY USA
    I used to use a Rega P3, and set antiskate just as russk describes a few posts up.

    I now use a Garrard 401 with a 12-inch Thomas Schick tonearm, and I don't bother with antiskate at all. The tonearm shipped with a contraption (weight on a string style) like the earlier SME's, but Thomas Schick says it is not needed. Everything I have read says that AS on a 12-inch tonearm is not that important. And finally, Art Dudley doesn't use it on his Schick either, so I feel I am in good company. I don't notice anything amiss. That's where I stand today.
     
  15. WestGrooving

    WestGrooving Forum Resident

    Location:
    California, U.S.A
    I have a Music Hall MMF 2.2 (6+ years) and use a 1.1 g washer tied to a piece of waxed dental floss instead of the 3.5g factory weight. I made and compared DSD128 recordings using various weights (I didn't want to go without any antiskate) and went with the 1.1g.
     
  16. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    1. I am using Thorens TD160C (with stock TP-16 arm) for 40 years.

    2. I use Anti-Skating feature on the TT.

    3. Here is my rationale, or history, testing and / or findings as to why I run with Anti-Skating on or off:
    • when antiskate is set to zero (or set too high), sibilance and inner groove distortions are noticably more prevalent in general - and specifically when testing with the following disks:
    Various - Audio Obstacle Course - Era III - The Shure Trackability Test Record
    CBS Laboratories - Technical Series Professional Test Record: Broadcast Test Record
    • when anti-skate is set to zero, the arm has a tendency to "skate" into the lead-in groove on many records, which is quite annoying.
    4. Here is how I test to verify the Anti-Skating is accurate and actually works on my Turntable.
    • see above disks.
    • alternate quick check: any 12" or 7" disk with a blank side - gently lower arm to middle portion of disk, and observe the behavior. Adjust antiskate and repeat test.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 11, 2017
  17. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    I hadn't thought of trying dental floss. I used fluorocarbon fishing line (8lb?) that I had laying around.
    If anyone is wondering, do not use monofilament line. Mono lines have memory and will create a permanent form (bends or arcs) to the line where fluorocarbon will not.
     
  18. WestGrooving

    WestGrooving Forum Resident

    Location:
    California, U.S.A
    I recall it was the only thing I had lying around that was decent. I should try peeling and cutting away at the strands in the floss to take it down to 1 strand.
     
  19. jeffmackwood

    jeffmackwood Forum Resident

    Location:
    Ottawa
    I read and follow the turntable / cartridge instructions - whichever those might be. It's worked for 40 years or so. For the most part that involves setting the anti-skating equal to the tracking force - but again, I go by the instructions.

    On occasion in the past I was able to obtain old magazine test reports that have confirmed the manufacturer's recommendations, although I seem to recall one instance where the report said that a slight deviation in that recommendation yielded better measured results - so I did what the report said.

    Jeff
     
  20. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Gold Note Bellavista TT and B5 tonearm.

    It comes with a thread/weight anti-skate, with two placement options for normal or 'more' anti-skating options. It also recommends not using anti-skate for cartridges over a certain weight - I can't find that now but recall it being just under the weight of mine. Either way, I got best results with the normal anti-skate option.

    I used the Hifi News test record but couldn't pass the harder tracks no matter what I did, even using different alignment options. For the lesser tracks, and general listening, the above worked best.
     
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