Does a high end CD player provide better sound than a lossless rip?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by colby2415, May 10, 2017.

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  1. harby

    harby Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    Does driving on Germany's autobahn provide a better driving experience than driving a Corvette?
     
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  2. DrZhivago

    DrZhivago Hedonist

    Location:
    Brisbane Australia
    It's rather all about the order in which they arrive. :)
     
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  3. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    For me,playing the CD via a good CD player always sounds better to me than a lossless file rip of the same CD.Even when playing both back through the same DAC.

    He is an interesting article about the subject of bit perfect reproduction.

    A Transport of Delight: CD Transport Jitter

    '' This "bits is bits" mentality scoffs at sonic differences between CD transports, digital interfaces, and CD tweaks. Because none of these products or devices affects the pattern of ones and zeros recovered from the disc, any differences must be purely in the listener's imagination. After all, they argued, a copy of a computer program runs just as well as the original.
    As our knowledge of digital audio has become more sophisticated, however, we've learned that the timing of those ones and zeros is of utmost importance. It isn't enough to get the bits right; those bits have to be converted back into music with the same timing reference as when the music was first digitized. It turns out that timing errors in the picosecond (ps) range—the time it takes light to travel inches—can audibly degrade digitally reproduced music. ''
     
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  4. Shiver

    Shiver Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Same. I've really no 'side' or preconceptions in this, just speaking as I find. Also found different transports (as well as the PC) sounding different going in the same DAC with the same CD. Go figure.

    Totally cool if it works different for others and they've nailed PC/server playback in a way that it all sounds the same.
     
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  5. walrus

    walrus Staring into nothing

    Location:
    Nashville
    I could see this if using crappy software. But there's several applications out there geared towards people who care about such things, that provide much better and more accurate file playback than stock applications like iTunes or Windows Media Player (or whatever Windows comes bundled with these days). Theoretically, assuming a perfect CD rip, an app like Audirvana could (and should) provide more accurate playback than any mechanical device.
     
  6. forthlin

    forthlin Member Chris & Vickie Cyber Support Team

    And when that CD wall goes all the way down to the floor, you've got that other spine to be concerned with. ;)
     
  7. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer

    Blasphemer!
     
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  8. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    Its not that I disagree with the logic, here, it's that I disagree with the idea that doing anything with a rapidly spinning disc and a laser beam is going to have a lower ceiling then things that don't. I'll grant you that computer audio can have good/better/best, and there is a level where a high end CD transport might best a low-end computer based solution, but I think many folks are guilty of drawing assumptions from price tags in this space.
     
  9. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    Maybe the ripping process and the creating of a digital copy of the information embedded on the CD, could somehow create undetectable timing errors,even though the file is bit perfect?
     
  10. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer

    The best digital playback I ever heard was an Apple computer based streaming system that used some rather expensive software (can't remember the name) that played the file from RAM memory.
     
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  11. Dennis0675

    Dennis0675 Hyperactive!

    Location:
    Ohio
    Right, there are many variables and they are all impactful. I run both a computer and a CDP to my DAC, the biggest different is the interface. If I don't feel like dealing with a keyboard, monitor and computer software, the CD spinner is the choice. If I don't feel like pulling and shelving silver discs, the files win.

    If I want to get all OCD and compare the ripped silver to the transport, it's a coin flip. I'm in the camp that thinks the transport is not capable of adding anything positive to what is being heard. At the end of the day I don't think there is enough difference to pick a side.
     
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  12. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    'those bits have to be converted back into music with the same timing reference as when the music was first digitized'

    Maybe a transport and laser do this better than data file playback?
     
  13. MacMan2007

    MacMan2007 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Aren't most modern DACs re-clocking the date coming in anyways? Doesn't that make any discussion of timing/jitter upstream of the DAC clock irrelevant? I'm asking this from a bit different perspective - wondering what really high end digital transports (like Aurender) do that my bluesound node doesn't.
     
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  14. shaboo

    shaboo Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bonn, Germany
    One second of (stereo) music = 16 bits * 2 * 44,100. It's really only 0's and 1's. There's no secret or hidden timing information stored on a CD, that could in some way get damaged or lost by ripping.
    Bit-perfect rips are perfect, so if you're encountering any timing errors during playback of your rips, then something else is to blame.
     
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  15. shstrang

    shstrang Forum Resident

    [​IMG]
    Don't forget this.
     
  16. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    Can a DAC re adjust timing errors ove they have occured.
    Posted previously:

    '' This "bits is bits" mentality scoffs at sonic differences between CD transports, digital interfaces, and CD tweaks. Because none of these products or devices affects the pattern of ones and zeros recovered from the disc, any differences must be purely in the listener's imagination. After all, they argued, a copy of a computer program runs just as well as the original.
    As our knowledge of digital audio has become more sophisticated, however, we've learned that the timing of those ones and zeros is of utmost importance. It isn't enough to get the bits right; those bits have to be converted back into music with the same timing reference as when the music was first digitized. It turns out that timing errors in the picosecond (ps) range—the time it takes light to travel inches—can audibly degrade digitally reproduced music. ''
     
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  17. Robert C

    Robert C Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    Some of you guys make this really difficult for yourselves! Listening to music at your places sounds like a roller-coaster of anxiety!
     
  18. I have a hard disc player and also use a DAC w/computer and lossless . The DAC and the Hard disc player are made by the company and a little over 12 years apart in age, the player is the oldest. I've compared the two on the fly. I can't say one is better than the other, just slightly different. If I had to let one go. it would be the player. I'm way to lazy to get off my rear end and change CD's when I can click from across the room.
     
  19. libertycaps

    libertycaps Forum Resident

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    So lemme get this straight: A "high-end" stereo component designed to convert bits of data from compact discs into audio just might do a better job than a personal computer/server/hard drive with data files? Color me amazed!!
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2017
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  20. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    Do we really have to go down this road again?

    The timing is the encoding rate, 44.1k, 88.2k, ....., 352.8k. There is no magic sauce encoded on the disc. Encoding rate is the frequency rate that the DAC chip runs. It doesn't vary by much. If it does, it's called jitter. Jitter exists in both worlds, a disc spinner and an HD spinner.
     
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  21. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    I guess it's hopeless to ask posters to describe their listening tests which form the basis of their assertions. We all know the specs so endlessly repeating them in lieu of listening tests has no value. And no I am Not talking about any particular test methodology. Just describe the listening test whatever it was.
     
  22. enfield

    enfield Forum Resident

    Location:
    Essex UK
    I presume the test would be play the CD and then play the ripped file of that CD..Ideally in a blind test.
     
  23. Mr Bass

    Mr Bass Chevelle Ma Belle

    Location:
    Mid Atlantic
    I really don't care at this point what listening test is used. Any listening test would be an improvement over repeated posts talking about 44.1, /96k-24/redbook /DSD specs and human hearing over and over again.

    For myself I listened to the same CDs over my Esoteric SACD/Cd Player to Cayin headphone amp to Sennheiser 600s compared to my AV computer through a Juliet@ card to my Cayin headphone amp to Sennheiser 600 and the Esoteric won handily. But I don't have a separate Esoteric DAC to make the test more even. There was a discussion of this same point on Arthur Salvatore's site FWIW.

    REFERENCE COMPONENTS-DIGITAL SOURCES
     
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  24. Cherrycherry

    Cherrycherry Forum Resident

    Location:
    Le Froidtown
    @enfield , I would like to offer you an apology. I took a look at your link and skimmed through it and scoffed at it being from 1993 and wanting laugh. Then I took a 10 minutes to read through it and understood the testing on Jitter and the process used and what it imported for transport cables and jitter which occurs throughout the digital circuits.
    My unwritten post was rather derogatory. Please excuse my arrogance.
     
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  25. lonelysea

    lonelysea Ban Leaf Blowers

    Location:
    The Cascades
    My CD player was crazy expensive so it has to sound better.
     
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