Does judder make you shudder ? Hz -The Refresh Rate Thread -HZ

I made the mistake of getting a tv with 60Hz , and
can definately notice the distortion during fast
moving sequences , disturbingly i was looking at
another set in the store that was 120 and still
noticed it

saw something called Motion-Flow recently ,
not sure how much of an improvement it is


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refresh_rate

 

What you are seeing, may not be ( contrary to what a lot of TV companies say ) actually caused by the TV itself. Often this stuff is part of the source or the chain that delivers the source.

The refresh rate really isnt that important, its one of those overused catch phrases really.

Having a high refresh rate isnt always a sign of a better picture.

 

Yeah, all 24 frame per second footage has it, no matter the monitor. I've also seen certain channels that just have something screwy in their processing and everything is outta whack.

 

P.S. To my eye, Motion-Flow and their ilk make everything look like cheap video with an extra layer of weird. I turn off most "features" on my TV's.

 

I have a 60Hz TV and have never noticed distortion due to the TV itself, it always comes from the channel. For example, I have watched plenty of sports on it without a problem, always on one of the sports networks. However, I was watching The Amazing Race once on CBS and the feed was so horrible that anytime a camera moved, everything became slightly pixelated. It was the worse HD presentation I've ever seen.
I've heard that 120Hz and motion flow all causes film elements to look like tape, would you like that? Plus, if you say you weren't impressed at the store, I don't know why you should feel upset with your purchase, you probably saved yourself some money. Now, I can't remember all I read during my period of fantasizing over getting an HDTV, buy I think plasmas don't have this problem, so maybe that's the direction you should've gone.

 

What you described is 'macro-blocking' and indicative of starved bandwidth to properly render the picture at the minimum data rate so the picture does not break up.

The combination of sports, Crime..uh Time Warner Cable, and CBS is well known to cause macroblocking.

 

We recently upgraded our TV to a newer Sony KDL-60R550A. It's a flat-panel LED/LCD and it's replacing a tired 55" KDF-55XS955 rear-projection LCD. We'd been watching through our DVDs of STAR TREK: DEEP SPACE NINE when we switched TVs and all of a sudden, any shot with video processing (outer space shots, phaser blasts, or credits on the screen) had this ugly judder effect to it. Motion was jerky.

Now, I know all about the Cinemotion and Motionflow stuff and set them all to "off", but the jerky motion was still there for the video-processed scenes. Today, I found the answer but am still not quite certain why it fixed it. My Blu-ray player has a setting on it labeled: "BD-DVD-1080P: Auto or Off." It had been set to Auto, I set it to Off. I think this may have to do with the upscaler in the Blu-ray player fighting with the scaler in the TV. Is that correct?

Harry

 

It also has to do with the compression used for DS9. I always noticed issues with the series.

 

With a LCD digital panel and digital broadcasts I no longer notice judder or flicker. Put me in front of a CRT TV and I run away.

 

HATE IT. Motion-smoothing is a crime against humanity. It's the visual equivalent of "smiley-faced EQ" on home stereo systems.

The picture does not need extra processing to look good. All you need is to turn all the automatic controls off and set the picture to a known standard (preferably with measurement probes, but you can get close with test DVDs and Blu-rays).

To me, the electronics companies are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist. There's precedence for this: back in 1997-1998, George Lucas asked Sony to build a digital video camera to replace motion picture film (for his new Star Wars pictures). The first few prototypes were all 30fps, the same as normal TV. George insisted that it be 24fps, just like film, and the Japanese engineers said, "why would you want that? The motion is so blurry! The picture is much better when there's more frames per second!" Eventually, Sony was convinced to do what he asked.

Here's a few links that explain why it's bad. (Be warned some use foul language, because people are so upset about it.)

http://prolost.com/blog/2011/3/28/your-new-tv-ruins-movies.html
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-33199_7-57569102-221/what-is-the-soap-opera-effect/
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=33273647
http://www.avclub.com/articles/youre-watching-it-wrong-threats-to-the-image-in-th,83548/

The first link is the best: "Your New TV Ruins Movies." Very well-said.

I hate, hate, hate, hate cheap circuits like this that have terribly negative effects on picture quality. And I'm sad that all manufacturers keep those modes on as the factory default.

 

TV manufacturers have been misadjusting their products all along. OverBlue, CrayolaColor, Day-Glo etc. One can only hope one is able to re-set it to display near correctly. I had foolishly hoped quality would get serious when HDTV rolled out, but old tricks and new gimmicks remain the order of the day...

 

Maybe this wasn't the exact thread to post in, but I'll try this again.

I'm fully aware of the Motion settings on the TV. I switched them off in trying to fix the judder problem on special effects scenes on DS9. It wasn't doing it on the old set, but it was quite noticeable on the new flat panel (Sony KDL-60R550A). Again - I switched all of the motion settings to "off", but the judder was still present.

Now, stay with me here. I found the solution to this problem. It was fixed by changing a setting in the Sony BDP-S570 Blu-ray player's menus. The Sony manual reference to this setting is:


It was set by default to "Auto". By setting it to "Off", the DS9 judder (and all shows on DVD of that era: THE NEW TWILIGHT ZONE, NOWHERE MAN, STAR TREK: TNG, MISSION IMPOSSIBLE '88 - all of the shows that were relegated to the video realm for post-processing) was gone.

With the language of these option descriptions, should I be switching this back and forth when I switch to Blu-rays, or regular filmed DVDs? Or is it fine to leave "Off" for everything?

Harry

 

That's just a switch for 1080i vs. 1080p. I don't think it'll have an effect on line-doubling or frame-doubling per se. If it's film-based material, one hopes that 1080p will be OK. Deep Space Nine was done in standard-def 525 60Hz, so it does have 2:3 pulldown in it. As far as I know, it's not out in HD yet. There are always artifacts when uprezzing SD to HD, and the frame-rates just add another potential for more problems. If you find a setting that looks good to you, go for it.

 

We watched a DOWNTON ABBEY Blu-ray episode last night with the switch "off" and it all looked as good as any other episode did with it on "auto", so - so far, so good.

Harry

 

Downton Abbey is shot at 25fps (the UK standard), so I think what's sold in America is the 29.97 conversion. I see a few little minor motion artifacts, but they're not that terrible.

 

Amen!

 

I don't think that's correct. I think that is the option to allow 24 fps playback by holding each frame for 5 120ths of a second. Since the listed material is older broadcast TV, it's not at 24fps to begin with, so that mode is causing a problem even though 'auto' should not use the 24p mode (particularly since he mentioned playing DVDs).

 

I can tell you that on another forum, a Deep Space Nine fan contacted Sony with the same problem, and this was Sony's solution. I thought it was worth a try, and it works. So far, I'm not detecting any adverse effects by leaving the setting "off", and am confused as to what it's doing when in "auto."

Harry

 

Keep in mind, displays that are advertised to accept 24p are just that. They can recognize and display a 24p signal. The problem is they aren't reproducing it correctly. To date, the only flat panels that I've seen handle 24 frames correctly were the Pioneer Kuros.
For example, in the Panasonic plasma panels, in theory the 96hz mode should be ideal for 24p content. Except the control is broken. You are better off selecting 60hz and turning off the 24p output of the Blu-Ray player.

 

Thanks guys. Your explanations are helpful.

Harry

 

That's not true. A 120hz capable (lcd/led) set with a 24p mode displays 24p just fine. As I mentioned above, each frame is held for 5 120ths of a second.

 

With added artifacts.
Address one problem and create another.

 

What artifacts are you talking about?

 

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/display_myths_shattered

http://www.displaymate.com/LCD_Response_Time_ShootOut.htm

http://hdguru.com/120240-hz-lcd-problems-exposed/

 

At a glance, nothing in those articles talks about artifacts introduced by using 24p mode. Sure, there are discussions about frame interpolation with 120/240 hz displays, but a 'real' 24p display mode won't use interpolation.

A lot of people appear to get this confused. They equate 120hz display with motion interpolation. Thus questions about how to turn off 120hz mode when they notice the 'soap opera effect' when it is actually frame interpolation that they want to turn off.