Does the new Project Debut Carbon DC fix the motor hum problem?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Alobar, Mar 5, 2015.

  1. ChuckyBuck

    ChuckyBuck Active Member

    Location:
    Albuquerque, NM
    I took a second wire and ran it from the ground post on my turntable to the earth post on the plug of my surge protector - basically I just wrapped the 3rd post on the plug. With the main wire in place, put your finger on the turntable ground post. If this diminished the noise at all then additional grounding should help. It touching the post doesn't help any then the second ground wire might not do much either.

    Over time I've accepted that the problem I had is only really a problem at higher than normal volumes. Part of the solution for me was to decide to stop worrying about it. Oh, - and save up for a higher end turntable.
     
    Kristofa likes this.
  2. Com4734

    Com4734 Member

    Location:
    Canonsburg PA
    Had mine for close to a year and a half and never had any hum issues even on the high gain MC setting my preamp is now set to. The stock ground cable is very delicate though. I had to fix it by melting the soldering and reattaching the wire when it broke off.
     
  3. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Switch mode wall warts dump a load of **** into the mains and are detrimental to sound. You will likely hear a low level buzz through tweeters at moderate volume.
     
  4. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Enjoying Sparkling Crystal Clear Digital

    Correct me if I am wrong, the SE upgrade kit is what you are talking about?? According to the SE Upgrade kit instructions, it's not for the Debut Carbon, they specifically mention that in the instructions on their site. Could you be talking about another fix that is out there somewhere?
     
  5. Benzion

    Benzion Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Never had hum with mine. I also have it plugged into a power conditioner with EMI/RFI filtering, which may help.
     
  6. Northa40

    Northa40 New Member

    Location:
    Canada
    No this a potential fix for noisy power supplies. I posted this because it describes the problem I am having with interference caused by the cheap power supply supplied with Project turntables. I had tried everything to make my Carbon and now my Essential, quiet. I was going to post this separately but I might as well do I now. I fixed my hum/buzz today with a different power supply. I went to a pro music shop in my area that also does computer repair. I bought a used 13.5 volt power supply from a Cannon printer/ scanner and replaced the plug to fit the Essential II. The old Project supplied power supply caused a hum/buzz, even with the turn table switched off. I could unplug it from the turntable and it still cause interference. I could move the jack close to the cartridge and the noise would increase. The easiest way to tell is, with the turntable hooked up, turned on and running, turn the volume to max and listen to the noise, is it a white noise hiss or is the a lot buzzing and humming? Now unplug the power supply from the wall socket and remove the jack from the turntable, turn the volume to max. If the hum and buzz is gone and there is only the white noise hiss, you have a power supply problem. Fortunately, for me, I finally have my speed problem fixed by replacing the drive belt and the noise problem fixed with the new power supply. Good luck on your bearing noise, sorry I can't help you with that.
     
    Dinstun likes this.
  7. Northa40

    Northa40 New Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Yup, I have confirmed the noise from my Essential II is from the power supply. I COMPLETELY fixed with a power supply from a Cannon printer/scanner. Have a look at my other post.
     
  8. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Enjoying Sparkling Crystal Clear Digital

    I have been following this hum situation on the Debut Carbon for a long time. I purchased one and sent it back the next day after speaking with the service and engineering people at Project. They are very aware that most of their turntables have this hum/buzz, and I picked up on your calling it a hum/buzz, as it's very different from the normal annoying 60 cycle hum. The ongoing problem which has been ongoing for years and years with the Debut Carbon is a 120 cycle hum/buzz happening when the stylus hits the record groove, EXACTLY like this YouTube video shows. As long as the platter is turning and the stylus is tracking, the user hears the annoying 120 cycle hum/buzz, at the lead in groves to the record, during quiet passages in the record, between tracks and finally the lead out grooves. When the stylus is lifted, all hum/buzz stops totally. I'm just curious if exactly what occurs with this user in this video is exactly what you were experiencing and did you have to place the stylus on the record to experience the hum/buzz? This is the very best demo of the ongoing design flaw of the Debut Carbon turntable. When I really put the pressure to both their sales manager and the head of service, they both reverted to, just go ahead and return the product where you bought it, as they have no fix for this, only things to "reduce" the annoying hum/buzz possibly some. So with that said, please look and listen to this very short video and please let us know is this the exact problem you experienced??

     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
    patient_ot likes this.
  9. sublemon

    sublemon Forum Resident

    I'm still unclear as to whether the carbon DC resolves the hum issue ... ? but no one should a turntable which such a bad design flaw IMO. There are other options in the same price/performance category.
     
  10. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Enjoying Sparkling Crystal Clear Digital

    I have been told the DC version still very much has an AC motor and it does nothing at all to solve the long ongoing buzz/hum situation, nothing! I was just so amazed at everyone knowing about this problem and just sweeping it under the rug, both the sales mgr. and the product service mgr. had a laundry list of things for me to "try" and obviously nothing worked. I just feel so sorry for the folks that simply do not know their turntable is suppose to operate without buzz/hum, they probably think it's just the way it is with turntables! You know, Pro-Ject could fix this problem if they wanted too, I just wonder why they won't, as the Internet is full of buzz/hum complaints, I have never seen so many, same with YouTube! :thumbsdow
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
    nibor likes this.
  11. Classicrock

    Classicrock Forum Resident

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Project should be ashamed of themselves. If this is just when playing records it is something to do with the signal leads and earthing. The switch mode buzz can be heard when turning volume up and stylus not in groove and it's pretty insignificant compared with that video clip. How many TTs I wonder do they get returned as a result of this and what happens to them? Anyone have similar problems with the more expensive models? BTW a tiny switch mode can make a whole system sound sat upon or dead. I removed one from my back up TT/phono stage last night and sound of my main deck opened up and improved about 20%. It's therefore likely that not only Project have noise issues but the performance of the decks are severely compromised. I would suggest to anyone to buy a Rega especially the new P3 if they can afford it.
     
  12. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Pro-Ject will tell you that noise from motor rumble is "normal", even on their $1500 models. On some models you may only hear the noise through headphones. This is a different issue from AC/electrical hum that comes down to motors used and the way they are mounted on the tables.
     
  13. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Pro-Ject doesn't care because they have many customers that ignore or simply don't notice the issue. One guy even made a website dedicated to it, communicated the issue to one of their biggest distributors and measured the hum with a bunch of tools...guess what? They don't care and are not going to fix it.
     
  14. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Enjoying Sparkling Crystal Clear Digital

    Wow, this is beyond anything I can imagine! I just don't understand how anyone cannot notice the level of 120 Hz hum/buzz shown in the above YouTube video, which was 100% exactly what I experienced. Here is one more video that really, and I mean really hits this ball home. This poor man ended up cutting his Debut Carbon in slices to try and eliminate the buzz/hum and he was still not completely successful, although giving it a heck of a try. So, this problem must be a total re-engineering task that Pro-Ject is not going to tackle. But it is very clear from what I have read, the DC version was not created to resolve the hum/buzz, as the motor is the same old AC version. If you have not seen this video, you really need to, I think this says it all! Oh, almost forgot, the platter mat shipped with a Debut Carbon is so thin, it won't even stay flat on the turntable, and always pulls up when removing the record. I have never, ever seen a mat so inferior, I literally cannot believe they even use it at all and people are not complaining! In this video, this user has replaced that cheap mat with a very expensive mat, and with that and sawing the turntable in pieces, he still can't get all the hum/buzz out!

     
  15. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Was considering a few different Pro-Ject tables at one time, but no longer. Wouldn't touch one with a 10 foot pole. Three things led me to this decision: that video, the website I mentioned, and seeing/hearing my friend's Debut Carbon in action.

     
  16. Northa40

    Northa40 New Member

    Location:
    Canada
    This is an update to my Project woes. Speed problem has been fix with a new belt, its a white one that looks pretty cool on the black platter. I have fixed the noise problem by, as suggested in previous post, by replacing the stock power supply. The power supply with the Debut and Essential II DC are 15 volt DC wall adapters that in fact are pure crap. The emit so much EMI and RFI it is easily picked up by the phono cartridge. I purchased a 13.5volt DC 1.0 amp adapter from a Cannon printer, the actual measured no load voltage was apx 17.8v. I replaced the connector with a 5 mm jack an sealed it up with shrink tubing. The result was spectacular. Now, if I turn the volume full there is only the pleasant hiss of white noise no more hum/buzz. The used adapter cost me $5.00 and a pair of 5mm plug cost $6.00 Canadian dollars, so almost nothing. FYI it doesn't have to be a Cannon any power supply with an actual transformer will work.. These are considerably heavier and larger than the small light weight switching units.
    After making these changes I am now enjoying my Project Essential II and probably would still have the Debut Carbon, but it just pissed me off to spend that much money and not have a proper functioning turntable.
    I hope this helps.
     
  17. Northa40

    Northa40 New Member

    Location:
    Canada
    Just replace the power supply. Read my other posts.
     
  18. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Electrical hum from a ****ty power supply and motor noise from poorly designed motor mounts aren't the same thing. Replacing the power supply doesn't fix the latter.
     
  19. Dinstun

    Dinstun Forum Resident

    Location:
    Tennessee
    Yes, it seems the discussion is of two completely separate issues. My Debut Carbon Esprit SB (DC) had the power supply problem (now fixed), but no motor hum problem, at least not at 33 rpm.
     
    patient_ot likes this.
  20. patient_ot

    patient_ot Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    Yep, and this always happens in every Pro-Ject thread.
     
  21. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Enjoying Sparkling Crystal Clear Digital

    I just have to ask the 400 million dollar question. If it is this simple to fix this problem, why in the world would Pro-Ject not invest $5 or $10 and change the power supply, if you are experiencing zero hum/buzz, what would be their reason for not just upgrading the power supply? I agree with Dinstun, these are two very different problems. The key element in identifying the hum/buzz I am speaking about is detailed in the video. There is complete silence until the stylus is lowered onto the record, at which time the hum/buzz starts and it's not 60 cycle, I was told by Pro-ject it's 120 cycle, much higher pitch, which is why people are using the term buzz! I have seen on YouTube, users experiencing worrisome 60 cycle hum, grounding related, but this buzz problem is only identified by placing the stylus down on the record with platter moving, two separate issues. If you have viewed the YouTube video with the GREEN turntable and yours behaved exactly like that one did, and you solved the problem with the power supply, I would like to know it. :crazy:
     
    Last edited: Mar 21, 2017
  22. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Enjoying Sparkling Crystal Clear Digital

    You are soooooo on target with your response! This 120 Hz buzz, caused by the motor, motor mounting, and the entire crummy design of the Debut Carbon with it's toilet paper thin mat, get's lumped in with all the other 60 Hz hum problems people experience with lots of turntables. This problem is very different and only occurs when the stylus touches the record with a moving platter. If you will notice on the GREEN turntable video on this thread, his setup was totally and completely silent until that stylus hit the grooves on the record with a moving platter. I tested this as well. When the stylus is lowered down on the record with the motor off, dead silence, no buzz at all. That and only that, is the problem that is the ongoing debate with the Debut Carbon tables, YES, others have similar problems as I have been told, but, the carbon is the one with the seemingly unsolvable hum/buzz only when the stylus hits the record, and that buzz does not stop until the stylus is picked up off the record, or the motor is turned off, at which time it is totally silent again! :agree:
     
  23. dougotte

    dougotte Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    I'm with you, Ben. I never had the hum. I did upgrade recently to a 2-Xperience SB, and have no problems with it, either.

    I also use a power conditioner. My employer's Desktop Services has a bunch of them (they used to get one w/ every PC they bought) piled up, so they give me one whenever I ask. They're called Tripp-Lite.
     
  24. I've owned two Project tables, an earlier Perspective and my current RPM10. Never had a problem . Only noise problem ever encountered was caused by an unshielded IC to the phono stage when I changed over to using LOC cartridge.
     
  25. Litejazz53

    Litejazz53 Enjoying Sparkling Crystal Clear Digital

    Here is another thought. Many people, including myself have experienced 60 cycle hum, and there are so many variables that cause 60 cycle hum, poor grounding, faulty grounding, poor cables, faulty cables, other components, especially cable boxes, televisions, lights, light attenuation, certain types of lights, and so many other possibilities, they are literally endless. So, with all of the dozens of situations that cause hum, this 120 Hz hum that is NOT caused by all the standard fare gets lost in the shuffle.
    People hear it and simply do not realize they have a turntable with much, much less than stellar engineering when it comes to the plinth, motor, motor mounting and whatever contributes to this seemingly unfixable 120 Hz hum, not to mention a turntable mat that is ridiculously and unacceptably thin, so thin is pulls off with each record removal from the platter and won't even stay flat. You can watch videos on YouTube and the darn mat is all curled up on the edges it's so flimsy and thin. That is the first thing new users replace, and probably many times they turn around and pay Pro-Ject an additional $60.00 for a $10.00 leather mat, as the included mat is barely sufficient. To know if you are plagued with the 120 Hz Hum/Buzz, you have to conduct the test shown on YouTube with the green Carbon turntable. If your turntable has 60 cycle hum, it will probably hum with or without the motor being turned on, however if it has that buzz when the stylus hits the lead in grooves, you know you have the very common defective Debut Carbon. I have been told this motor induced 120 Hz Hum/Buzz is present on other Pro-Ject tables, but it plagues the Debut Carbon table. :tsk:

    Hey, for those of you that can hardly believe a company like Pro-Ject would ship a product with a razor blade thin, worthless mat, just look at this Pro-Ject video, the blue Debut Carbon on the left side. Look at the cheap worthless mat curling up along the edges, heck in some of the Carbon videos, they don't even use the mat that is shipped with the table. This is really funny, doesn't the guy see the lumps in the mat, heck he could have ironed the mat before the demo! At least it would have been flat for the video. Take a look at this, I rest my case.

     

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