DSD and DSD over dop question.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by stereoptic, Jun 2, 2017.

  1. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    NY
    Is HDMI capable of transferring DSD over dop using squeezelite and piCoreplayer from a Raspberry pi? Or do I need to do it over USB?

    My process is ISO File -> ISO2DSD (Sonore) -> .dsf file

    .dsf file-> dbpoweramp -> FLAC file.

    PiCoreplayer shows the file is playing but I get no sound. Other FLACs play fine.

    I am not sure if the dbpoweramp conversion is working properly. I don't see an option for using the DSD to dop codec. I've uninstalled and reinstalled dbpoweramp.

    Is there something missing in my process question mark or is it Hardware related?
     
  2. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    Does your DAC support DoP?

    With "DSDPlayer" plugin running on LMS you'd avoid having to manually convert DSF.
     
    jfeldt likes this.
  3. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    NY
    I am using my Marantz receiver as the deck. It plays the DSF files from my Oppo through HDMI.
     
  4. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    No. A Raspberry Pi will pass high-res surround formats over HDMI, but is basically useless for 2 channel audio, I think it caps at 48/24 if that. It can't do DOP without being able to to the corresponding PCM resolution, so you'll need to stick with USB.

    Edit for posterity: I believe the rPI is technically capable of this at the hardware level, and I recall reading of people who have sort of hacked their kernels to allow for higher resolution audio over the HDMI, but there doesn't seem to be any current turnkey OS solution for this.
     
    McLover likes this.
  5. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    On this piCorePlayer page it says, "Option to use HDMI audio out up to 24 bit 192 khz (out of the box)". That is sufficient for DSD via DoP if your DAC can decode DoP (and your server encode it as LMS can with "DSDPlayer" plugin).

    While researching this I came across the information contained in this post several times. It's stated that, with these switches in place, you don't need to be running the plugin.

    Sorry, I can't be more definitive than that but at least you have a few things to try.
     
  6. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    NY
    Yes, thanks for that link. I tried troubleshooting this awhile back and came across the same thread (I'm a forum member there as well).
    I think that my next step is to document each trial and error as I've lost my place as to what works with each setting.
    @Rolltide - I know that the rpi plays 96/24 stereo files. The Marantz receiver info verifies that. I am almost 100% positive that the Rpi will NOT play multi channel files.
     
  7. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    There was a recent thread where somebody had this all broken down. I think they were using Kodi however, it seems PiCorePlayer is an entirely different set of hits and misses. I suppose its important to distinguish what the Raspberry Pi hardware itself is capable of doing vs. what the software running on it is capable of doing.
     
  8. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    NY
    Is there a file property that indicates whether the FLAC file has the DSD inside?
     
  9. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    Yes: What is DoP (DSD over PCM)? | dCS

    Your DSD-capable DAC needs to be able to understand this; not all do.
     
  10. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    NY
    Thanks for that. I wonder if there is any software that translates those bits to field in file properties.
    I guess this rules out HDMI:
     
  11. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    DoP is a standard so I guess it's best there's only one way to do it. Marantz makes mention of DoP in its latest marketing materials so presumably your DSD-capable receiver can handle it. Then again, it might only be DoP-enabled on its USB input; you can easily test this. Note that DoP only works when the full 24-bit PCM sample is passed through to the DAC. Your piCorePlayer should be fixed at 100% volume so that there is no truncation of the samples. BTW, some Oppo units can stream DSD using DLNA so that may be another option to play your DSF files to your receiver.

    I'm pretty sure HDMI not being on that list is just an oversight. HDMI can transport both hi-bit PCM and PWM (DSD).
     
  12. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    NY
    Thanks for the info. I found a list here that lists equipment that is dop-ready. I on't see my SR7007 on their list. Thanks for the hints, I have things to play around with. Squeezebox Touch plays the dsf files, so I quite happy with that. I haven't done any A?Bing or blind test, but I feel the FLAC file that create from the .dsf at 88.2 (176.4 isn't an option on dbpoweramp converter) they sound a bit less brash than the .dsf.
    I am going to play around with the usb out of the raspberry pi as another option.
     
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2017
  13. EddieVanHalen

    EddieVanHalen Well-Known Member

    How can I convert DSD files to DoP? Thanks for your help in advance.
     
  14. wolfram

    wolfram Slave to the rhythm

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    DoP isn't a format, it's a standard to send DSD through a USB connection. You don't have to convert your DSD files, but your DAC has to support DoP. I think the Oppo 105 D does (unfortunately I only have the 105).
     
  15. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    NY
    I called Marantz support and asked if my two receivers can support DSD over dop. Their response:
    SR7007 - can process DSD over dop. He said that HDMI is specifically mentioned in the manual (I will have to check, I couldn't find the reference when I looked). Will work with USB. The DSD indicator should light up.
    NR1506 - can handle it, light should come on. Although the manual references USB and doesn't specify HDMI, in theory it should be able to process it through HDMI.
     
  16. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    NY
    I use dbpoweramp to convert DSD .dsf files to FLAC files. I have the DSD over dop codec installed, but I am not sure how to verify that the files contain it. The link supplied by @Apesbrain indicates that this is documented in the first 8 bits, but I have no way of being able to translate that.
     
  17. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    I've never seen that receiver before and it is very cool. Nice price, too. Good luck with it!

    Seeing that it is network-enabled and DLNA-certified, I'd be tempted to run a good DLNA server like MinimServer and see if DSD can be played that way.
     
    stereoptic likes this.
  18. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    NY
    Yes, I've got some trial and errors to run through (when I get the time, I'm pretty busy in the next few weeks!)
    . I'll report my findings here if anyone is interested! :)
     
  19. Kyhl

    Kyhl formerly known

    Location:
    Savage
    .dsf file-> dbpoweramp -> FLAC file.

    I didn't see where this was addressed earlier. .FLAC is PCM data, by default. When you ->.flac your file it automatically translates it to PCM, meaning no longer DSD or DSF.

    I don't know how to deal with the rest of your issues but this might be part of the key of why it isn't working.
     
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2017
  20. stereoptic

    stereoptic Anaglyphic GORT Staff Thread Starter

    Location:
    NY
    As I understand it DSD over dop is used to wrap the DSD a FLAC file passing it off as PCM.

    To quote from here:
    dBpoweramp Codec Central Direct Stream Digital: DSD .dff .dsf sacd

     
  21. testikoff

    testikoff Forum Resident

    ^^^ There is no DSD over DoP, just DoP (i.e. DSD over PCM)... ;)
     
    Rolltide likes this.
  22. Kyhl

    Kyhl formerly known

    Location:
    Savage
    Yep, but once converted to FLAC the DSD is lost. FLAC is PCM only.

    ISO is a file compression version of DSD.
    FLAC is a file compression version of PCM.

    What happens when you convert a DSD file to FLAC is it is converted to some PCM rate (24/176.4?) then compressed into the FLAC container.

    If you want to play the DSD it has to be in ISO, DSF, or DFF, it can't be in FLAC, because FLAC = PCM. So take the conversion to flac out of your process.
     
  23. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    DSD64/128 is not lost if DoP is used. Please see link above:

    What is DoP (DSD over PCM)? | dCS

    You are probably correct that dBPowerAmp is not the way to do this, but OP will figure that out. As someone said earlier: DoP is not a file format, it is the way to real-time encapsulate DSD into a PCM stream for those streamers that are unable to handle DSD but do support 24/192 PCM.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  24. Kyhl

    Kyhl formerly known

    Location:
    Savage
    I didn't say it was. I said, saving the file as a flac loses the DSD.
     
  25. wolfram

    wolfram Slave to the rhythm

    Location:
    Berlin, Germany
    This sounds like encoding a DTS or DD signal in a WAV of FLAC file. Interesting.
     

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