Ok, so this is not strictly a "music" topic, but it concerns the new Pink Floyd release. Is Dark Side of the Moon Capitol's first SACD? Did anyone else notice the little disclaimer buried in the fine print, which says: "This product is provided AS IS, without any express or implied warranties."? Sounds like they are trying to cover themselves in case some players have trouble with the disk. But can they do this? If so, what's to stop a record company from putting out product they know to be defective, and when the customer tries to exchange it they point to the disclaimer? (PS: Got mine at Meijers. They had a bunch, at around $15.)
That would be fraud. There are no express warranties on the cd and the excerpt below explains the implied warranties. http://www.smartagreements.com/bltopics/Bltopi18.html The Uniform Commercial Code (UCC) The Uniform Commercial Code is a law passed in some form in every state. Article 2 of the UCC relates to sales transactions and includes many warranty rules. In particular, Article 2 provides that certain "implied warranties" may exist when goods are sold. These are the implied warranties of merchantibility and fitness for a particular purpose. The implied warranty of merchantibility applies only to sales by a merchant. According to the UCC, a "merchant" is someone who normally deals in the goods being sold or who holds himself or herself out as having knowledge about the goods. The implied warranty of merchantibility means that, unless properly disclaimed, a seller automatically warrants that the goods are fit for the ordinary purposes for which such goods are used. The implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose is somewhat different. It arises only if the seller has some reason to know that the goods are required for a particular purpose or the buyer is relying on the seller's skill or judgement to select goods suitable for that purpose. For example, if you tell a shoe seller that you need shoes for mountain climbing and he sells you running shoes, you may have a claim for breach of the implied warranty of fitness for a particular purpose. Implied warranties can frequently be disclaimed, in other words made to be of no effect in the sale transaction. To disclaim an implied warranty with a consumer, you must inform the consumer in a conspicuous manner in writing. This is the reason many contracts involving the sale of goods include the "disclaimer" in all capital letters. Some sellers attempt to disclaim these warranties by statements that the goods sold are "as is". Note that some states have modified the UCC so that a seller can not disclaim an implied warranty when the goods are purchased for personal, family or household use. Disclaimers of implied warranties are also usually ineffective if the product is so defective that someone is injured by it. Lastly, the Magnuson-Moss Act prohibits these disclaimers in connection with a written full warranty for a consumer product or service contract. While a disclaimer of implied warranty is often a useful tool for a seller, you should consult with an attorney to ensure that your disclaimer is both legally proper and effectively made.
It is probably to cover themselves incase it is not backwards compatible with certain CD players. A small percentage of players are expected not to play some of these hybrids and copy-protected CDs. I guess they were not all manufactured to the same standard.
The disclaimer may be there due to the fact that DVD-ROM players for PC have problems reading redbook initially, because--as I've found out--if a disc with redbook also has Enhanced CD or SACD information, the program goes directly to that portion of the disc, and not the redbook. I found out about that when I put in Britney's first album, which has a bonus video(don't ask why I have it--please). Anyway, it uses QuickTime, plays good, but I had to go into the program and do some fiddling to hear the music. Same with the Stones and CCR SACD's, I suspect, though they're not the type of thing I put in that player, anyway. Since this is the case, and even some regular CD burners may not play back the redbook properly, that's a good guess why there's a disclaimer. Also, as EMI has been putting out DVD-A, maybe they're worried some will assume it'll play in those decks despite the obvious SACD designation on the cover. ED
Exactly. I have a very good friend who owns a high end audio store and he tells me there are many CD players, from all price brackets, that are having various problems with the supposedly compatible SACD's. It's not just that some players may not play the redbook layer- some players will play the redbook layer, and then freeze-up after ejecting the disc. Evidently, there are a lot more problems than we hear about. AJH
I've had trouble with my Stones UK Between The Buttons sacd/cd. It plays on some players, not on others, and only -sometimes- on others! It's hit and miss on about 12 players I've tried it on, from boombox to walkman to dvd to car and various other decks around the house. They better get their act together on that...
I haven't had any problem with the hybrids in any player, including the ancient one I use for headphone listening, and that reliable little friend has been around since the mid'80s....but I would never put a disc I respect into a DiscMan, boombox or car player, I'd clone the sucker to CD-R and use that....despite what some savants would have you believe, some players--especially the kind that top-load and get carried and jostled around a lot--do tend to scuff and otherwise make a CD look like it's been stomped on, even if it does remain playable. ED
Maybe all of the aforementioned problems are part of the reason, but I know that a lot of folks have been sold on the fact that DVD players also play CDs and so many people that I know use their DVD player as their primary -- in most cases only-- CD player. Considering the way DVD players react when a hybrid is loaded, I can see the need to have a disclaimer.
Excellent point, Robert. In Shakey's thread about buying an SACD player, he was concerned about finding a deck that would play redbook up to high standards he assumed might not be reached with 'compromise' players. And so I recommended he search around for a good, used CD player to use for redbook only--exactly my night time setup. After you posted, I took a 3-way SACD hybrid--Diana Krall's THE LOOK OF LOVE, which has SACD 5.1, stereo, and redbook--and waited. In a flash, right to redbook; no hesitation whatsoever. It would seem some DVD players tend to start reading SACD--what it assumes to be DVD?--first, then find the redbook after *realizing* its error. Or not. But that's an Audio Hardware question, far out of my scope. Every day, I just hit the power button, grateful that everything is in perfect working order(fingers-crossed smilie, if we had one). ED
A Hybrid disc is not a RED book strict standard, so in essence, that exclaimer works to the fact that the user should know that the disc isn't from the usual mold. Hmm.. I would have to guess the disc is Scarlet book, which is SACD, at strict standard.....
Hybrid SACD's are based on technology from DVD-V. Most DVD movies are dual layer; that's how they can manage to fit a 3 hour movie on a single disc. If you watch carefully, you can see a 1 or 2 second "freeze" in the video of a longer movie when you watch a DVD - that is the point of the "layer change". The laser intensity changes so that the beam focuses on a different layer of the disc. When playing a dual layer SACD on a DVD-V player, or a DVD-ROM drive (especially older ones), the laser sometimes will initially focus on the SACD layer instead of the CD layer. Since it has no idea of what to do with the stream it is reading, it freezes up or indicates "no disc". There may be firmware upgrades available to prevent this - but since an SACD is NOT compatible to the DVD standard, it is hard to tell if any DVD drive that is CD compatible will successfully read a hybrid disc. Most stand alone CD players will read the redbook layer of a hybrid SACD as the laser has no ability, instruction or capacity to refocus and read anything other than the CD layer. Since DVD-V players and DVD-ROM drives anticipate multi-layer discs, it's a crapshoot to determine which layer they will read first when playing a hybrid disc.
I don't think that's possible. Not the "intensity". You would need either a change in wavelength (and that means a different laser), or a serious change in the optics (and I'm not sure about that). I do know how hybrid SACDs work - and there are two lasers of different wavelengths. I don't know how the 2 layer DVDs you speak of work. I'm not sure how these work. Do they only have one laser? That's exactly right. This laser does not see the SACD layer. Regards, Geoff
More importantly, the TOC (Table Of Contents) of the Red-layer is in section of real estate on the disc, and for the SACD and SACD 5.1, there's others.
When it comes to PC compatibility, my Pioneer DVD-ROM drive refuses to play hybrid SACDs. It shows one unplayable audio track. They discs play fine on the AOpen CD-RW writer in the same PC. The redboock part can also be copied without a problem from this drive.
