Dumb question, I know. How to compare album sonics??

Bear with me, please. Even after having collected Gold CD's for close to 5 years, I'm still pretty un-knowledgeable about things

I would like to know your opinions... how can you directly compare two versions of the same album and find worthwile differences between them?

Take for example, MoFi's / DTS / DCC version of "A Night at the Opera". I have tried to compare the DCC version against the MoFi... both sound *identical to me! How can I accurately compare both?

There are other examples where the remastering is pretty obvious (for example, the "Echoes" version of "Astronomy Domine" vs. the original "Piper at the Gates of Dawn" CD from Pink Floyd). But, for those situations when both remasters sound pretty much alike, what should you look for?

Thanks!!!

 

Hi fjhuerta

Can you please fill out your profile first as this might offer a clue. I've heard that the MFSL has the typical MFSL midrange suck-out, means it's lacking, and Steve's version definitely doesn't suffer this dilemma.

 

Hey Dave!

I didn't realise so many fields could be filled. I just corrected my omissions.

 

Welcome man!

Turn up the volume to a comfortable maximum and take one part of one song that you think you would notice a lack of midrange in and play a 20 sec. mark. Swap CD's back and forth a few times and let me know if you still hear no difference.

 

You've just done it - by listening. In your case, you hear no difference. That's it. Look no further.

Regards,
Geoff

 

Most of the time I get away with just listening one at a time. Other times i'll load them up into Cool Edit, match the levels with the RMS normalize, paste them together at ramdomly chosen spots, and listen.

 

Thanks all for your opinions!

I feel a bit dumb right now. Yesterday, I gave away a DVD player I had lying around (since, I thought, I had no use for two identical models). I guess I should have asked here first!

BTW, Steve, thanks for your answer... and thanks *a lot* for all those wonderful sounding remasters. The "The Cars" DCC version is one I can compare with the Rhino remaster and find subtle but definite differences - just to name one disc.

Dave, I'll try to do just what you said. I think it'll be easier to look for any differences by using headphones. At least, that way I won't bother the neigbhors! Of course, I could always take Geoff's advise, and simply leave "well enough" alone.

Grant, I usually rip and load CD's on Sound Forge just to see how limited they are. So far, the Pet Shop Boys hold the undisputable record for best music / worst recordings ever.

Thanks for your thoughts!

Javier.

 

One note here...listening with ear-cans can in no way possible reveal soundstaging and this is why I suggested the method that I did. Let's put it this way, do you honestly think that a 1" speaker will replicate as well as an 8", 10" etc.? Impossible!

 

I have friends who tell me they can't tell the difference between my gold discs and standard discs. They can't hear the no-noise, etc. I try not to push too hard. You just look like a foolish zealot.

I just thought I'd add that the DCC Queen ANATO trounces the MFSL, IMHO.

 

Drew, care to point out what areas should I try to concentrate on ANATO? Also, have you compared it to the DTS' DVD-A version?

Dave, headphones might be severely lacking in soundstaging (well, except for the AKG1000 - I want one of those!!!), but I have yet to listen to a speaker system that sounds as balanced and uncolored as my Etymotic ER-4S. Still - there's no substitute for speakers. I guess the physical impact of sound waves are part of the overall equation.

 

The differences between the DCC and MFSL are the remastering. Who does it and how it was done is what is important. I don't understand how someone couldn't hear the differences in remastering, and it is the reason I don't own a CD of Santana "Abraxas."

As far as the medium goes: if DCC produced both gold and aluminum discs of the same music it is doubtful you could hear the difference because the laser is reading digital information and what the medium is made of isn't really a factor, at least not when the disc is new. The reason that gold is used is because it doesn't oxidize like aluminum does and is therefore more permanent (or so I have been told).

 

I don't have the DTS DVD-Audio ANATO so I can't compare it to that. The guitar work about 60 seconds into the opening track "Death on two Legs" kicks major butt on the DCC over the MFSL. Also the vocal performances all over the album sound like they're going on in my room. The accuracy of the tone of the piano is perfect without any tweaking of a EQ or tone control (I don't have either in the signal path of my system). What I hear is the typical midrange magic the DCC's are known for.

 

And...because gold is finer, and covers the surface better. Aluminum, depending on the quality control, tended to leave little pin-holes all over the surface - even on brand new discs back in the early days of CD.

If you held a disc up to the light, you could easily see the pin-holes. Sometimes there were a lot, sometimes there were only a few (and sometimes the aluminum was sprayed on thick enough to provide full coverage), but either way, the CD player would have to work to correct those errors from the holes that were there.

The use of gold, and being produced at better facilities, helped to keep the reflective layer much better defined - helping the CD player do its job of just converting pits to music.

I will do comparisons of different versions of releases, CD/Gold CD/LP/whatever, using headphones most of the time. It's true that you won't get a true representation of the front soundstage that way, but it does help to compare tonality and the effect of different equalizations used in different masterings.

How the bass resonates in a room, of course, is better using actual speakers than using headphones. And different masterings can effect the sound of that as well.

Joel

 

An academic question (but I have never tried): does this mean that a cd-r of a gold disk will sound different?

 

Some more suggestions...

Relax and listen to the music and don't try to force yourself to hear differences.

Play at a reasonable level. Steve always suggest trying to get the volume to a level were it sounds like the singer is there doing live in the living room. I agree that's a very nice level.

Try to concentrate on different instruments and listen to what there doing and working with everything else. Get a sense of where things are in the soundfield. I find relacing and closing my eyes works.

Does the music say something to you or do you find yourself thinking about what to have for dinner or what's on tv?

Todd

 

Yes, sometimes slightly, sometimes a lot. It depends on a lot of factors ie. what burning program, what burner, what speed, what cd-r etc.

 

Once again, thanks for all your suggestions!

Yesterday I listened to the new "Essential Cyndi Lauper" CD, following most of your recommendations.

I can honestly say it was nothing short of a *revelation*. As I listened to "Girls just wanna have fun" , I realised I had never heard the rhytm guitar on the left channel so clear, or so present, even after having had that particular disc (She's so Unusual). Heck, I don't remember that guitar being there at all! Suddenly, I was back in love with the disc.

So, I guess the best way there is to compare a particular version with another one is not to compare them at all (that is, the best way for me!). Thanks, Todd!

Dave, is there a FAQ or any link where I could check out how to correctly copy a Gold CD into a CD-R? I must admit, with MoFi and DCC's demise, I'm not very anxious about playing them anymore.

Thanks again!

Javier.

 

The best that I've heard personally comes from a free downloadable program called EAC, here's a link for you.http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

The next best and very very close is "Soundforge" but it's not free.

Both burnt at 1X as anything higher seems to alter the sound slightly. Get the Japanese made CD-R's by Maxell, Sony, or Fuji for music, at least IMHO.

Above all else get a really good burner. Plextor and Yamaha come to mind immediately.

Send me a PM if you require help in setting up EAC.

 

The more you listen, the more you will hear. Also, if you've ever worked with some of the tools of the trade (EQ, compression/limiting, noise removal) you can quickly spot them in use (or misuse, as the case may be).

Sometimes it just sounds "wrong", and you don't find out why until later. A few albums that I have from a certain record pressing plant sounded hollow; turned out they all had a notch around the 3k range. Then there were the CDs that sounded like the tapes were played back with mismatched or uncalibrated noise reduction... I later found out it was the dreaded NoNoise in action. Another song that I had on a compilation seemed to have much more reverb, but it was actually heavy compression that was bringing up all the low-level signals. Bleah.

 

Dave,
for sounstaging, I agree with your comments re-headphones. Otherwise, good headphones do it for me (you don't get the thump in the guts from the bass however) and differences are easily audible.

 

Re: Re: Dumb question, I know. How to compare album sonics??

I'm inclined to agree.

However, there are two ways you could detect differences (or lack of same) more rigorously:

1) ABX test -- this requires a helpful friend, or an ABX switching box, or ABX software. Basically, you play A and B at matched volume levels until you think you can detect a difference between them -- then play X (which is either A or B, but you don't know which one) . Your task is to identify whether X is A or B. You do 15-20 trials and see what your score is. If the number of correct hits is statistically significant, you've probably heard a difference. (This is a simplified protocol ; you can make it more rigorous still).

If you never get to the point where you think A and B are different in the first place, the test is kind of pointless, though.


2) Measurement. Rip the two tracks to .wav. Use Cool Edit, Sound Forge, Goldwave, or any other demo/shareware to analyze the files in terms of average level and peak level. This is much more sensitive than hearing, which means that even if you measure differences -- which is likely, if they are remasters -- they might not be audible to you. A difference in level of as little as 0.5 dB *could* be audible, but more likely you'll beed a difference of 1 -1.5 dB ,depending on the music.


To summarize:
-if you hear no difference, that doesn't mean they are the same; it measn they sound the same to you
-if you measure difference, that doesn't mean you can hear it; ears are not as sensitive as our measuring devices
-if you hear difference , that doesn't mean there really is a difference; the perception of differnence is highly subject to other psychological factors

however,

-if the two .wavs measure identically, there will be no real audible difference

 

Only if the the burn was done poorly, or the player has trouble reading
CDRs correctly.