Dyed-in-the-wool Digital boy wants a turntable.

The Wall ....Doug Sax ....'nuff said!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

@Slick Willie - I also recently went back to a unipivot (a Roksan Nima) despite being a ham handed fool.

It takes just a matter of a few records to get attuned to the differences in handling, and once you drop the cue lever, it's the same as a gimballed arm anyway.

 

Listened to the whole thing, disappointed when it was over. I've heard some copies have "thundering bass" where mine did not, but I was completely happy with what I heard. There was bass, just not truckloads of it. Separation of all the various percussion elements they throw in was fantastic, really lights up a room!

 

I can relate to what you are saying SO MUCH! I purchased an upgrade in 1992, based entirely on SRVs Little Wing. Jimi is the only guitarist that is better.

You are going to love the Classic 2 with the Dynavector cartridge. I had the Dyna on a Classic 1, then later a Classic 3. I loved what I had. Just don't ever listen to a top notch MC cartridge matched perfectly to a SUT (step up transformer). You will cash in your daughters university education fund!!!! (No, don't. Must not....)

Enjoy your vinyl. My new table shows up in the next ten days. Oh yeah, you MUST buy Analog Productions version of Pet Sounds. Wow.

 

UPS guy had his work cut out delivering this stuff today.





Bummer - wall shelf is not going to work for this bad boy. Will have to rethink that whole thing. I still want it on a wall shelf but I need something far more sturdy. I picked this sonofabitch up with the platter in place and it's over 60 lbs, easy. At least it feels like it.

So coffee table is back in place, it's all I've got that can hold this thing.

Loading it at 100 ohms, 60 dB gain (20x2 lomc cart). Set VTF at 2.0g went slightly "tipped up" for VTA (my goodness is THAT easier now...) and had to tweak azimuth a little. Haven't put on the test LP yet but I'm going to need to do that. It's close, but just needs a bit more dialed in and she'll sing.

Way too early impressions - better resolution, still better/bigger/faster bass, dead quiet on a good pressing. Unipivot seems pretty simple so far, not really sure what the fuss is all about. I do have a slight pop with turn on and off of the motor, apparently that's a VPI thing in some systems. Plugging it into my ISObar helps, as opposed to directly into the wall.

Pretty much the fairest assessment I can come up with, again way too early, but it sounds like it's built. Solid, big, and stout.

Oh and if I sound less than enthused, it has nothing to do with the turntable. It has, by any measure, been a really messed up day today. Quick summary: found out my wife and kid's doctor is an admitted pedophile (news broke today), sister in-law had a heart attack, and found out my boss my be leaving at work. So yea, not a good night to focus on music - it just isn't gonna happen. Tomorrow's a new day.

 

Sorry to hear all that Todd. Hope it works out ok.
On the upside, thats a ****hot looking table. Now, to listen to all your albums again and report back to us

 

What a day of ups and downs Todd. Sorry to hear about all of that. Congrats on the new table, I'm very excited to hear your opinion once you get a chance to put it to the test!

 

Y'know, $hitty as it's been this day, I am so very fortunate to have a place I can come to and just leave all that mess behind, to be dealt with another day. And so I take that back, I'll be focusing hard on music tonight. It's what is so magical about this hobby

 

I was going to say, having everything in life working at 100% always makes me a little nervous and it's honestly somewhat rare- it's always something. When some things suck, there are other things that can compensate--maybe not completely, but you have your mind, your passion, and when none of that works, your body- I used to work out like crazy sometimes to relieve stress. And, it all passes. So do the good things- everything is so ephemeral. Not exactly saying count your blessings, but you know what I mean.
When you get back to focusing on the 'table (something you should do with a clear head, not tired, no liquor or other stuff, etc.), you'll figure out something better than originally planned. I use time that way- say, I'm stuck waiting in a doctor's office. Fun, right? I'll use the time to think through an article I want to write, or how to rearrange something in the music room, or whatever. Time is all we have, and it goes so fast.

 

Thanks Bill and absolutely, too true. I look at my daughter and seemingly in an instant she's gone from this tiny little peanut, incapable of doing anything, to this little person who wants daddy to take the next turn on her inflatable cow, bouncing around the living room like an idiot I prefer not to consider the times ahead where she doesn't want to cuddle or has her face buried in a phone or tablet. I'm just trying to find every excuse to spend time with her now.

On the table - playing Crime of the Century now. It is so big, so sharp on this setup. For having put almost no effort into setup so far, it's an amazing setup. Now, if I'm doing the whole magazine-racing thing, the Concept setup was a $2600 setup, this one is about a $5000 setup if we're talking MSRP and all that jazz. Does it sound twice as good? I think we all know the answer to that, but it is a clear step up. I still need to dial things in and eventually upgrade my phono preamp to a level a little more appropriate for a Classic 2. But regardless, the musicality, midrange "punch" and soundstage it throws out is remarkable. But, we're just starting out, so very little expectations at this point.

 

Yep, that's what I'm finding with my Nima, very low aggravation quotient.

What I think I'm also finding (based on my extremely fallible old head) is vastly reduced surface noise - not clicks or pops, but general surface roar. I mean, same cart (Shure SC35+SAS) and just a different arm - and it wasn't bad or intrusive with the SME, but now it seems non-existent.

I'm loathe to say it's definitely the case, but you know when you are listening to some new equipment, trying to figure out what's different and something unexpected forces its way into your notice? Well, that.

 

Thonmo - I can substantiate what you're saying. Surface noise, as it were, might actually be a little higher with this combo than with my Concept + Maestro. It's not offensive at all, but I do notice it a tad more in areas of LPs which previously sounded quiet(er) in that regard. But, dropping the needle on the record, the space between tracks on a mint LP (or any LP with no obvious defect in those areas) are literally silent. You wouldn't know it was even on, in other words. This IS different from the Concept.

So, the Concept - I actually have *more* respect for that table now having the Classic. That's not to say it's on the same level, there are obvious and immediate differences but the prices for each are situated accordingly. Do I think the VPI is 2.5x the table the Concept is? No, I do not. But we all know how diminishing returns work. Going from 300 horsepower to 400 horsepower can cost you 20k but only provide a marginal - yet effective - increase in actual performance. And frankly, at this level, what we're paying for are details, nuance, subtleties almost. And I'm fine with that. I also feel like the Concept is an incredible value for doing what it can do at the price it does it at. It's as simple as that.

But, the Classic 2 - upgradeable, and an incredibly good foundation to work from, can easily be an "endgame" table. It likely will be for me. I'm playing the hardest record I have - Porky US pressing Zep IV (@Slick Willie). The Classic is powering through this record without breaking a sweat, revealing distortion-free detail at almost every layer of the soundstage. It took a ton of futzing with the Concept to get this record just to play cleanly and even at its best, it never sounded "great." All the while, the Concept aced every "test LP" track I threw at it.

Now contrast that to the Classic 2 which buzzes like a sonofabitch on the test tracks on the Test LP, but sounds pristine and pure on this difficult LP. So, everything is starting to come into focus now. I'm smitten, but I wasn't remotely unhappy with the prior table. It'll be a fun weekend, pulling out all of the LPs I can't wait to hear again for the first time.

 

Todd- I don't think the measure of a turntable system (the motor/platter/suspension; arm; cartridge and phono stage) can be judged by how quietly a record plays. In fact, the more revealing the table, the more obvious the warts.
I also don't think that you can measure cost benefit in some incremental way that correlates increased dollars spent to X level of "improvement."
What I've heard as I improved my analog front end was a combination of changes that, cumulatively, represent a qualitatively different sonic presentation; bass that is not just deeper, or tighter but has tone; changes in the apparent attack of notes and how they decay; more spaciousness in and among the instruments-i'm not talking about 'soundstage' but a more relaxed quality, one where the record actually seems to be playing more slowly, and sounds less like a record spinning and more like music unfolding. I'm trying to describe attributes of improvement over one high end set up I owned a few years ago, compared to my current set up. Measured in quick assessments of performance against money spent, I doubt one would conclude that the "improvements" were worth the money. But, take time, not just a day, a week, or even a month- it could take months to get everything dialed in; moving speaker position, room treatment, low cost experiments in gear isolation, etc.
I guess my point is that the real qualitative differences may take some time to reveal themselves, partly because you probably still have work to do in setting up and dialing in the table and system, and partly because as you listen more, and hear different things, you may decide that the "impressive" knock your socks off kind of WoW presentation is not what this is about, but instead, something a little more subtle- there is an ease, and a un-mechanical unfolding of music-- without the sense of a machine generating it --that sometimes gives me transcendent moments- going way beyond a 'Damn that sounds great' moment and more in the nature of awe of a lifelike musical performance in my room. Make no mistake: I am not saying that this is a substitute for live music, the equivalent of the live performance or a perfect replica of a master tape, but it is still a musical performance, in its own right, that can leave you not just stunned, but fully drawn in to the point that you are not listening to the system.
It doesn't happen all the time, it certainly isn't consistent among various records, sometimes it may just be that my mental state is more receptive to taking it in (or the cynic might say the power grid was cleaner late that night).
I'm also not suggesting that vinyl playback is the best, or most consistent, or even the preferred medium for some material. But, when it is right, it can be very, very engaging. And it's not because you are saying, ok, this is X2 better than what I had. All of that goes out the window after a while. The real problem is--it's like being addicted to something- you want more of it, all the time. And there is no easy or consistent 'fix' even when you throw money at it. Part of it, I think, is just living with the medium and equipment for a while, and listening to it with a variety of source material and reaching a place where you can accept that there aren't absolutes- that sometimes, it isn't going to sound that great, and other times, you are just going to be floored by how good it can be. And that's what keeps you coming back. (At least that's what's kept me at it all these years). I'm trying to convey a way of listening that demands patience, and a sort of relaxed, non-analytical mindset, like seeing something more clearly when you aren't looking so hard.
Sorry for the digressive post. I don't want to rely on trite 'audiophile' hype to explain the listening experience and why improvements can take time to understand more fully on an almost visceral, rather than intellectual, or 'first blush' level.

 

This.

Bill, that's an excellent distillation imo, and what I was sort of alluding to in my post where I said I think I hear this or that specific difference. There's an overall difference, for sure, but what those specifics are that are the parts of the sum of the change is not always that easy to quantify (and sometimes it's counterproductive to even try to isolate them)

 

Well written...many good points!

 

Yeah I agree. You will likely get more surface noise from a better table and cartridge, b/c they are likely enhancing flaws you did not know were there and you prior table/cart may not have been picking up. That sounds like a bummer, but it's a great thing b/c that means your new table/cart are also picking up all the good stuff that your other table may have been missing out on as well.

This is where I think I a lot of point get frustrated with vinyl and give up. It can be maddening when you are having difficulty find a good pressing of a record or better yet, have gone through several copies of the same pressing b/c they are all noisy.

As Bill said. Enjoy the table and let it soak in, b/c I'm sure you'll find plenty of other revelations about it as time passes. I've had my Prime for almost a year now and still tinker with it and my set up occasionally to try and dial it in even more. The best part is, I'm still picking up subtle differences between it and my prior table.

 

The thing that I think needs to be remembered in these comparisons is that you could apply very mild limiting to the needle drop file, only taking away the most extreme peaks, which in turn would not affect the perceived dynamics, then increase the gain and it would look much, much more like the digital file.

 

I have never found that the the better your table, cartridge the more enhanced are the flaws. It has been the opposite, the better the gear the less obvious clicks and surface noise become.
They, if they are there, become unimportant the less good the gear the more they echo through the system and are pushed to the fore.

 

I just noticed total messages in audio hardware forum is 1,000,000 even.

 

Sorry to jump into this thread so late without following it but I think the proper analogy is related to tracking force. It makes sense that the more force applied, the less sensitive the stylus will be to the slightest interruptions in the groove, but you're wearing your LP down at the same time. It also makes sense that more expensive line-contact styli are by design more able to observe detail in the groove, be it high frequencies or noise. I have a friend with an expensive line-contact, I've brought my records to their house to play and the high-frequency detail is, in my own words, insane, so insane that it magnifies surface noise (predominantly a high-frequency phenomenon) in addition to the detail in the music.

I'm aware this is an age-old argument, just thought I'd chime in with a counterargument.

 

True, when it comes to actual warts related to the vinyl on the platter. My first sentence was intended to address every other aspect of a turntable which makes noise - the motor, the arm, rumble of the platter, etc... In those areas, the Classic 2 is far and away better than the Concept. The Classic 2, relative to the Concept, "gets out of the way of the music" more so, if that's a better way of putting it. And in that sense, it IS a good judgment for a turntable at least IMO. It's simply a matter of noise floor. Lower the noise floor and eliminate sounds which are not musical but mechanical, and other details come up out of the background - some good, some bad In terms of defects within the actual LP - they are easier to hear on the Classic, but also less important due to the heightened sense of realism coming from the grooves themselves, if that makes sense. And again, these are just off the cuff observations.

You won't find me disagreeing at all. I'm not used to longer-term listening but am getting more and more used to it. My initial reactions are just that.

 

Again, I have never had this problem. Not saying you are wrong, just maybe your friend should have a look at his table set up, this does not compute with anything I have ever heard..

 

Yup - that's why I commented that the CD rip was not as bad as you'd expect.

 

An analog system's ability to deal with/minimize surface noise and other vinyl defects is a function of so many things: stylus shape, cartridge body material, compliance and tonearm compatibility/synergy, proper set up of the cartridge, gain and loading/capacitance synergy with the phono stage and even the overall quality of the phono stage itself.

So it's tough to absolutely identify what might be causing an increase in surface noise, especially when you change out 3 items (table, arm, cartridge) at once. For what it's worth, I am not of the belief that the more resolving the system the more pronounced surface noise will be; in fact I would say that you can achieve absolutely the opposite.

It is a broad generalization (mine FWIW ) but after using a number of cartridges over the years, including a number of cartridges that have been retipped with different cantilevers and styli, I've come to the conclusion that aluminum cantilevers are the noisiest in the groove, followed by ruby/sapphire, with boron being the quietest.

Notwithstanding subjective arguments with respect to the superiority or inferiority of individual cartridges, I do find that I prefer both the sound of boron cantilevers at this stage as well as their ability to navigate the groove quietly.

Just playing devil's advocate here, but it would be interesting for Todd to try out the Clearaudio cartridge on the VPI table and arm; would quite possibly be an interesting comparison. But a lot of work and I can understand why he might not do it. I do not enjoy cartridge setup-like to do it myself as I know that it's done properly but I tend to live with a cartridge for a long time once I've installed it.

 

Congrats on the new table Todd, that VPI pop apparently is an easy fix by swapping a capacitor that you can get from VPI. Had it on my table and distributor swapped them and now no probs.

Also, profile pic upgrade time?