Dyed-in-the-wool Digital boy wants a turntable.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by toddrhodes, Dec 8, 2015.

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  1. PhilBiker

    PhilBiker sh.tv member number 666

    Location:
    Northern VA, USA
    With the high dollar stuff that's being discussed here I am really not even qualified to comment... But here I go anyway.
    I completely agree with this. My last turntable was a mid-90s Denon DP-7f. Go ahead and look it up - it's a plasticy P-mount table with a weird "Microprocessor controlled" tonearm of the type that Denon was fond of back in the day. Like most Japanese P-mount turntables it's a competent piece, but limited.

    I replaced that table with the Realistic LAB-440 that I have now, an early 80s CEC OEMed direct drive piece that you've seen in pictures on this thread. The guy I bought the Realistic from had installed a cheaper Audio Technica universal mount cartridge than the AT331EP that I was using on the Denon. I took the AT311EP, exact same cartridge and needle off the Denon and installed it in the Realistic.

    I was shocked and amazed (and thrilled) at how much better the exact same cartridge sounded on a different turntable. The S/N ratio was higher, as measured by recording the same record in SoundForge through all the same equipment. I actually did measurements using my needledrop equipment (Emu 1212m sound card, SoundForge Audio Studio 10) to confirm that it wasn't my imagination. The noise was lower, the peaks were higher! Exactly the same cartridge, same needle - different turntable.

    Bottom line there are so many variables to tweak with vinyl and each one has the potential to make a noticeable difference in sound (for better or worse or just for different!). Even on low budget gear like the kind that I use and even with my tin ears it's noticeable.
     
    Last edited: Feb 5, 2016
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  2. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    @blakep I read about CA carts on JMW 10.5 tonearms and while they work, they aren't a very good fit. The CA cart is a full 2+ grams lighter than the Dynavector so you run into resonance issues pretty quickly. It takes a LOT of finagling for it to work well, adding weights, playing with damping fluid - I'd normally be all over it but the other factor is I want to deliver the Concept to someone as a "plug and play" option, so I'd rather just keep going with the Dyna and save up for both a preamp upgrade down the line and, ultimately, a Zephyr MI cart as they are basically tailor made for my arm.

    @Buddy>Elvis I'll try the cap upgrade most likely. It's not offensive really, but it happens whenever I need to flip the record and that will, ultimately get old I'm sure.

    On a separate note - new vinyl to me, just took delivery on my Euro (Spain) 1st press of GNR Use Your Illusion II. "You Could be Mine" sounds completely different from the digital variant. There is gobs more midrange (but not offensively so by any means) and it just sounds more natural.

    Whether it's a product of the cart, the table, or both - the most immediate upgrade with the Classic is with vocals. They sound like they, and the person they are attached to, are much more lifelike, as if you can see an outline of the shape of the singer as opposed to this "voice" hanging their in the distance. It's not a subtle effect, vocals sound extremely realistic.
     
  3. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Agreed!!!
     
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  4. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Say hello to wall shelf version 2.0:

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Please forgive the wiring - getting this thing off the table became priority last night when I realized I was getting a lot of acoustic feedback through the coffee table. I found this through a combination of things but narrowed it down to acoustic feedback because it increased with volume and didn't disappear as soon as it appeared, it took a second to fade away after I lowered the volume.

    Anyway, so this is two 160 lb shelf brackets secured with 3 3" lag bolts each (had to use my impact to drive these guys into the wall)

    From there, 4 1/4" Elevator bolts are locked in place with a nut and lock washer on top and stop nuts on the bottom. I leveled everything with my bubble level in a quincunx pattern (who here knows what that word means? :) ) and once it was perfectly level, I put neoprene discs I cut out on the flat part of the elevator bolts, then set my double-layer shelf on top of that, and finally the table sans platter. I didn't need any further adjustment, the table was perfectly level.

    Yes, it's up kinda high. I'm about 6' tall so it's very easy to work with the table now. There were a number of reasons it ended up at the height it did, having a toddler may have been one of them.

    And yes, this absolutely solved my feedback issue.

    I also found a little surprise in the tonearm wiring junction area this morning. I set out to fix a loose RCA connection and when I took it apart, I found the right channel wiring all wrapped around itself, ready to snap off at the actual output jack. I carefully untangled it all and tightened down the jack. No biggie, but that was a bit of a surprise.

    She's all back up and running now. Put on my bass test disc - Metallica MoP - Orion. I've not heard Cliff's bass stand out so much in this room. Delightful accompaniment to typing all this up :)
     
  5. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    And by the way, the idea for the shelf was from another Classic owner who used the same technique on his.
     
  6. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Sweet!!! Not sure if I mentioned it or not...a good bass feedback test record is the 200 gram AP reissue of Shelby Lynne's Just A Little Lovin'. Big boomy, sub wooferish (tech term?) bass. It will test feedback fo' sure. Not a quick firing bass, just big and drawn out. If it survives that, then you are solid! I've got 45 rpm Metallica releases with big bass, but the Lynne release is the one that really tests the isolation!
     
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  7. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Neat discovery - my Phonomena fits perfectly under the Classic plinth. So, a liiiiittle cleanup there :)
     
  8. blakep

    blakep Senior Member

    Nice job on the new wall shelf!
     
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  9. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Can you say "smooth" ?
    [​IMG]
    Sorry for the interruption....back to the regular scheduled programming......:kilroy:
     
  10. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    I shouldn't have even said anything about the Classic until I got it on a proper shelf.
     
  11. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Isolation changed your game? Hmmmm.......
     
  12. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    I commented a bit ago that Use Your Illusion II sounded much warmer, more midrange-y than I remember. I'm going to have to listen to that again now. That sound, at least on several tracks, was feedback. Derp.
     
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  13. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    I do have on that new Intervention Records Everclear - Sparkle and Fade going right now. Man does it groove - an absolutely outstanding reissue.
     
  14. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    I'm not laughing.....this is a journey....fun to watch others go through it!
     
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  15. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Another diversion while the OP regroups........
    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Sonics sharp as a knife!
     
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  16. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    No worries here. Was my first time listening to that album on vinyl. It seemed odd, that's for sure. So, darn it, now I just have to relisten to stuff :)
     
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  17. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    Been there - done that....may have to do it again?
     
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  18. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Here here!
     
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  19. ernest787

    ernest787 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Dallas
    Going back and relistening to albums is the best part of getting new gear.

    Especially when your favorite parts come on and the new gear impresses
     
  20. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Moved the phono pre back down above the preamp and finally got around to sorting out the wiring as best I can

    [​IMG]

    Almost forgot! That little black box on top of the phono pre is what my digital setup consists of now. A Raspberry Pi "Hifi Berry." Hope to get it set up soon, but honestly... not really in a hurry.
     
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  21. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Ok, so I finally got around to putting UYI II back on (specifically, You Could be Mine) - see avatar, lol - and my god. This is not a reference to the Concept because I never heard this album on that table. But there are guitar parts to this song I never even knew existed before tonight. The midrange, even given my misfire with this track pre-shelf, is just addicting. And given that this song can become a congealed mess in a hurry, the fact that everything stands out on its own sonically AND has it's own place in space is so flippin' cool. Gonna be a good night. Started off with Rumours (Hoffman/Gray reissue).
     
  22. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    Todd;

    Your experience very much mirrors mine. I owned and really enjoyed a Classic 1 with a Dynavector 20X2 Lo for a year, followed by a Classic 3 with the same 20X2 Lo, which was later upgraded to an Audio Note Io Gold cartridge - for a year as well.

    What eventually drove me to sell the Classic 3 was that I simply could not get away from the feedback from the turntable. It is, in my opinion, quite poorly isolated. I think that it is a great table (this is probably it's only significant flaw - read the Sterophile review where Michael Fremer discusses the lack of noise isolation), but my room doesn't allow a wall mount shelf (too many windows), so I could not get away from the bass feedback.

    I tried the several alternates to the wall mount, such as big heavy cabinets, with and without an isolation platform, lightweight rigid stands, again...with and without isolation stands and finally I have reached the end of the road. I have put acoustic treatment in my room and added wall to wall carpeting, to cover up the hardwood floor. Lastly, I will be adding extendable floor jacks in my crawl space in the next couple of weeks.

    I finally decided to go with a suspended table, as that seems to be what my room needs. I was very close to going to going to another mass loaded table, when my dealer offered me a ridiculously good deal on a Fat Bob Reference. I get my new table in a week or so and until I hook it up, I can't say whether it fixes everything. Although, I owned an LP12 for years and never had any of these problems before, so I'm hopeful.

    Your stand looks like it should do the trick. If you find that you need a little more isolation, the Solid Steel wall mount seems to be the best for a turntable that is as heavy as the VPI Classic.

    http://www.musicdirect.com/p-72223-solidsteel-ws-5-heavy-duty-wall-shelf.aspx

    Don
     
  23. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    Hi Don! I see quite a few people on the VPI forums touting the Symposium feet as a solution for some of the isolation issues. But, we are all bound by our situations - room, WAF, budget, so we just do what's best for our individual situations. I was very fortunate to find this idea this morning and knew it was something I could tackle. I'm also very lucky to have a Rural King store handy, lol. They sell much heavier duty wall brackets than the big box home improvement stores, for some reason. It actually took three separate stores to get all the parts together to do this but once I had them, it wasn't too difficult to put it together.

    Edit - almost forgot, excited to hear your impressions of your new table. If I ever feel the need to move on from the Dyna (and right now? No, I really don't), the AN MM is most certainly on the list, as is the Soundsmith Zephyr.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2016
  24. Don Parkhurst

    Don Parkhurst Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, BC
    I won't say too much just yet, but the step up to the (MC) Io Gold was huge (it was matched to a new Audio Note AN-S8 Step Up Transformer). The Dyna is great, but the first words out of my mouth after a very fastidious setup of the new cartridge, were 'Holy ****!'

    I love analog. It just keeps getting better : )
     
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  25. toddrhodes

    toddrhodes Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    South Bend, IN
    The MC is a little out of my reach at the moment :) But, I do concur with your sentiment - I've had many, many "oh $hit this is awesome!" moments along this journey. And even still, after the honeymoon phase has long worn off, and I've cussed a blue streak over some silly adjustment or test LP result or some such nonsense, it hasn't soured me at all on the process.

    My analogy, early on, of "learning how to drive a manual" is proving to be very appropriate. I'm not remotely scared about digging into the minutiae and coming out on the other end more satisfied and more knowledgable. That's part of the fun here. But, despite how "tweaky" I've come across here, it's because I started from a base of knowing nothing. Same with how much vinyl I've bought - I had nothing to begin with :) And I learn and experiment quickly, always have. Anyway, I'm digressing - at the end of the day my satisfaction lies not with the tinkering, it lies with the fact that I can put on a record full of stuff I've never even heard before and before I know it, I'm bobbing my head, tapping a foot, just enjoying the entire experience :)
     
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